Healing Love and Relationships with author Suzanne Muller
On today's episode, love and relationship coach and author Suzanne Muller gives us the roadmap to healing our hearts and step forward into choosing healthy, passionate, juicy love and relationships.
Referenced in the Show
Suzanne’s Bio
When I was young, I felt unlovable and not good enough, and I still fight those tendencies. My father was narcissistic, bipolar, and an alcoholic. My parent’s relationship was unhealthy. That’s what I saw when I was a kid. As I ventured out into the dating world, needless to say, it DID NOT GO WELL. I was naive and a hot-mess.
Engaged twice in my late 20’s and early 30’s, and never married.
Serial dated for a several years.
In 2010, I attracted a sociopath, narcissistic, sex-addict who cheated on me with several women.
After that I said, “ENOUGH.” I got determine to learn a new way. I hated the typical clichés, myth’s and rules. They caused more confusion than help. I studied and became an expert in being a great dater, gender dynamics, flirting, men, myself, love and healthy relationships. I healed my heart and became lovable from the inside out.
I was married for five years and am now divorced. We are on good terms and the divorce was smooth and harmonious. I am now in a very fulfilling, loving and fun relationship with a wondeful man that I met on the online dating site – fitnesssingles.com. He is 91% of my fulfillment list and I am 89% of his. It’s a beautiful spiritual and soulful connection.
During my 9 years as a Coach, I’m proud to say, I have an 86% success rate of people attracting the love of their life. My work has been the featured speaker on TV Shows, Radio Shows, luncheons, and Meet-Ups, etc.
I have the best job in the world as a Dating and Love Life Coach, Speaker and Author of Loveable: 21 Practices for Being in a Loving & Fulfilling Relationship, endorsed by John Gray PhD, Bestselling Author of Men Are From Mars And Women Are From Venus. In early 2014, I co-authored the International Bestselling book, Sexy Secrets to a Juicy Love Life.
My passion in life is to support professional, ambitious and self-reflective singles over 40. Together, we uncover what is in the way from YOU being in a successful relationship. You are then able to build a mutually satisfying relationship!
Full Transcript
Sarah Marshall, ND: Welcome to HEAL. On today's episode, love and relationship coach and author Suzanne Muller gives us the roadmap to healing our hearts and step forward into choosing healthy, passionate, juicy love and relationships. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Marshall. (music)
Sarah Marshall, ND: Suzanne Muller, thanks so much for being here.
Suzanne Muller: Great to be here with you.
Sarah Marshall, ND: So, you know, this conversation I've been really looking forward to because, you know, as a healthcare practitioner, a lot of the focus has been on people's physical health and even mental, emotional health.
And we've looked at. You know, joy, we've looked at depression, we've looked at taking ourselves through challenges and traumas in life, and then a lot around like how the body keeps the score, how the body ends up being impacted by our life choices. This conversation with you. I'm excited to get into love and relationships because I think that's another one of those background blueprint, it's back there impacting and influencing in my opinion, everything. People who overeat or have challenges with, you know, diet and how much of that gets caught up inside of feeling undernourished or unloved or uncared for, and how that then manifests in their physical realities and like all of it.
I'm sure you can probably speak to it more than me, but that's what had me go: we got to get Suzanne on here.
Suzanne Muller: I think you spoke to it perfectly, definitely goes into the emotional side for sure and all of it.
Sarah Marshall, ND: So tell us what you do. Who are you in the world?
Suzanne Muller: What do I do? I am the owner of lLovablize. And what I do is I focus mainly on singles, some couples, and I help people heal their heart.
I guess I'm a heart doctor, (Sarah: totally) in a way, without the physicalness of like surgeons and getting in there and diving in there. But I. I dive in Sarah to people's past and where they've been hurt and where they've been wounded and where they've been, where they've caused damage or where someone has caused, caused damage to them.
Whether it's been a parent, a narcissist, a sociopath, someone that has damaged their heart and caused like heart pain internally, therefore causing them to not be able to love or fully love or see love. So I love working with singles to help them heal those types of wounds so that they can have the best, most epic, healthy relationship of their entire life.
And I guide them along the way.
Sarah Marshall, ND: That's so awesome.
I knew there was a direct connection, but I didn't quite realize it was like dead on like, like literally, like I'm like, I think she'd have some things to talk about like how healing is in our relationships. You're like, no, that's what I do. I love it. So, you know, there's a lot of different places we could start this conversation and I do want to hear more about like what you've discovered along the way that makes that difference. But I also know, you know, you didn't come into this by accident. Would you be willing to share a bit of your own story and how you ended up here?
Suzanne Muller: I would love to, because people often ask me that, you know, how did you start in this?
Like, why would you take on this area of life? Cause it's pretty emotionally charged and I'll start with my childhood, which is where my purpose started. I had afather that was bipolar, alcoholic, narcissistic, and emotionally not available. When we were kids, although he was in the house, he just was not, he just was not there at al emotionally. Physically, yes. And I would call him a rageaholic. So our household was very loud and what it caused in me to deal with that kind of a personality emotionally as a little girl, I felt unlovable, unwanted, not good enough, I couldn't do anything right. I was what... we were walking on eggshells as a family, any little thing, and it'd be like (mouth explosion sound) he would just rage and scream and call us disrespectful. And that ultimately caused myself to have a really low self esteem. And so when I went out into the dating world, I was looking for attention from any man that would love me. Will you love me? Will you love me? I often use the analogy of feeling like a lost puppy dog, any man that gave me any remote attention, because I wasn't getting it from my father, righ, the one man in my life that was supposed to protect this little girl. I didn't get it. So I sought it from other places. And so I picked a lot of the wrong people for me, anybody that would give me attention. And I was like, maybe he's it, is he it, is he it, is he it?
And I got into unhealthy engagements in my thirties, serial dated for a, a long time. I just didn't know what I was doing. I was lost and confuse,d is how I would position it out in the dating world.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. What do you think about like, I feel like I've heard. I don't know where I got this from, but sort of like, Oh, until your own trauma is resolved, you'll just keep picking people to heal those wounds, to like, play that out. What's your kind of take on that?
Suzanne Muller: Very true. And that's what causes the patterns. So my, all the men, I was dating in my twenties and thirties, because my father was an alcoholic, guess who I was attracting. I was like attracting alcoholics, like flypaper, because it was all I knew. And then I did a personal growth class in my thirties and got like, Oh wow.
It was like this big epiphany. Aha! No wonder I'm attracting men that are alcoholics. My dad was an alcoholic and had to do some healing around my father. And then I was able to break that cycle. I was able to break the alcoholic cycle. And then in my late thirties, I attracted, I hit rock bottom. In my late thirties, I attracted a sociopath, narcissistic, sex addict that I thought I was in love with because he was charming and outgoing and just, you know, he was energizing.
He was exciting. And that was, I hit rock bottom when I heard that he was dating like six other people. I had broken up with him. Thank goodness. Like I knew something was off.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Already. Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: But then I found out that he was cheating on all of us behind our back.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Wow.
Suzanne Muller: And that's when I was like, I would like, my heart was so my heart was already damaged, but that was the point, Sarah, that I knew that my heart could not take another heartbreak.
I felt so stupid. And naive. And that's when I knew that I wanted to get into this area of life to help prevent people from these types of hurts wounds, you know, being swooned and, you know, talking to these kinds of people and thinking that they're in love with these kinds of people and not having their head on straight and their heart aligned with who, who is really healthy for them.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: That's where I knew that this was my purpose in life. And I was really successful. I was in the software world making, you know, shit ton of money, but I knew that this is where I was supposed to go.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. And I, I mean, I'm going to make a broad sweeping generalization that is not, this is me waxing on philosophical about things I'm not an expert in, (laughs) but it's like, it seems like around me and I'm gonna persona or by whatever talk about myself is I've seen particularly in women. And I don't think it's not in men. I think in men and women, we're dealing with maybe different things or maybe you see really similar things between the two.
I don't know, but I'm a woman. So I have a particular vantage point of , I'm accomplished. I have these career accolades. I actually have a really healthy, great relationship with my parents. I have healed a lot of wounds with my family members and I would still put myself in the category of more or less bumbling around in the wilderness lost.
It still occurs. I either just have to make the best of the life I have, which is incredible. And I'm single and let go of the attachment to, I have to have a partner. I have to be fulfilled inside of loving relationships. But then because I've had people say like, until you're truly comfortable being alone, you'll never manifest that partnership, there's all these platitudes we put out there.
Right. Or then the other is like, How are you going to learn about relationships unless you're not on the court having a relationship and I'm like, okay, you two, which one is it? Right. I got a doctorate degree, so I like learning things and figuring stuff out. So I've like tried to figure out this area and it, like, I, it still occurs to me like it's just going to either be God's grace, that the right person like crosses my path and I hopefully will know it when I see it. But I watch myself. Now I'm a bit more in the resignation camp of like holding off, like I'm just not going to date. And so like, what I kind of see is that there's a community of like relatively successful women.
Cause I hang out with women and it may be men too that are just sorta like, well, I have a great life and it's good enough. And you know, I'll have some fun and I'll date here and there, but. I mean, if I tell the truth inside my head, I'm like, it's probably just not in the cards for me. Like, that's just not my destiny.
Right. That's the like hook I tell myself to justify it. Cause then I also make myself nuts trying to like figure it out or make it work too. So I'm like, Hm.
Suzanne Muller: Oh, you're pointing to that this area of life is so emotionally charged in so many different ways. There's so many facets of it. And I I've worked with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people and it's men and women.
It's, you know, it's men and women that are successful that are achievers that are bright and smart. I thought I was bright, smart, fairly attractive too, but even I got sucked into these people that weren't good for me. And, but the healing Sarah that I realized that I had to do, and that I love doing with clients is healing the heart from the inside out healing, those wounds that maybe they're like, oh, well it was 20 years ago.
Oh. But it was five years ago. Doesn't time heal all wounds? No, it actually doesn't. So that's the work that I love to do with people is to heal those wounds from the inside out so that they feel whole versus whether you, I mean, Sarah, you don't need a partner. You really don't. You want a partner and when it comes, it will happen and it will be magic.
But the thing that I realized is that I wanted to help people prevent being fooled, burned, picking the right people. I wanted to, I needed to help myself heal the damage that I did to myself, so that I knew that I was wise enough and savvy enough and smart enough to know that when that person comes along, I will be able to identify not good person for me, good person for me.
And those are the tools that I love that I've developed and specialized in this particular area.
Sarah Marshall, ND: So will you give us a peek behind the curtain? Like what is some of that look like? Like what, what does it take to heal those wounds. Like what is an example of that?
Suzanne Muller: I'd love to share a couple of exercises.
The three exercises that I'd love to share is first of all, you know, when we're over 30 or over 40, or we've done a lot of dating, we've dated a lot of people. We've met a lot of people and the wounds that will show up is around what are people's views of dating? If I ask anybody, I asked you, what's your (Sarah: I know) view of dating.
Most people will say. (Sarah: YACK!) It's (Sarah: YUCK!) time consuming, exhausting, annoying (Sarah: fruitless, yep!) Right? It's horrible! Resign is YUCK and then they're like, well, it's also a great way to meet people, so people can not, that kind of energy will not pull that kind of good partner towards you by so I first of all, have to help people raise their vibration in the area of dating men or women.
Love relationships, help them create something new to increase their vibration. Cause people can feel it. Right. You can send someone's energy if they're like. YUCK YUCK EHHH And then the second one, yeah, Sarah, I would share is subconscious thoughts like in the background, as you know, right. You've studied brain science that the brain's job is to keep you safe and love is a risk.
Love is uncomfortable and unsafe to the brain. So the brain will try to keep you safe, putting negative, gremlin thoughts in your brain. I'm not good enough. It won't happen for me. This is really stupid. It's not possible for me. All of those types of thoughts, keeping you comfortable and on the sideline.
And so I work with clients to help them shift those subconscious thoughts and help their brain work with them as their friend, rather than against them as their enemy. Yeah. Which is fascinating. And then the third exercise I will share with the audience is what I call my infamous, a way to kind of fix the broken partner picker, right.
Which we've done. And I call it the fulfillment list. And a lot of people have no list at all and they're just flying blind. I, you know, when I see it, yeah. Then they have a list of like 50 items and they put it under their bed in between their mattress, you know, but that's too light. It kind of can get into the too picky and then they have a vague list. Oh, spiritual loves to travel. Good communicator. I'm like: FOOD
Sarah Marshall, ND: like good sense of humor.
Suzanne Muller: Good sense of humor. Like what the hell does that mean? Right. So I'm like fooey on all of those three. (Sarah: yeah) people go "really?" And my fulfillment list is very specific in 14 different categories. And what differentiates it is that it's specific. Like it's a whole paragraph about communication.
What does that look like? What does that feel like? What is, what is the specifics between you two around speaking, conflict, listening. It should be paragraph communication. If you don't have it. You're done. Other categories are health and fitness, spirituality, career, money, relationship readiness, which is an interesting one that people normally don't put on there. Are they ready? What are they ready for? Or family relations, sense of humor, politics, intelligence, there's 14 categories, Sarah, and then to help fix the broken partner picker. I help people evaluate their dates so that, because it's such an emotionally charged area of life, they can get it on the court and they can evaluate people.
And as you know, right, my bar is you have to have 80% or more of this list, plus chemistry and attraction. And I have them rating their dates after every date.
So that once the person is over 80% then they are a potential that you could be in a healthy relationship with if they're still sitting at 55, 60% for three, four months.
Sorry. Nope. Not the right person for you.
Sarah Marshall, ND: God, it's so interesting. Cause like, even the part where I get like our brains protect us, right. Something happens to us. Our brain makes a decision never again. And then we like, you know, we keep shortening the field. We keep like, okay, not this, not that, not this, not that, you know, like, my ex-husband drove a white F-250 Ford pickup. And I watch myself have emotional opinions about guys who do and don't drive trucks and it can go in either direction, you know, but it's like that, right? Like my brain is just like hunting for the evidence is good. Is this bad? Is this good? Is this bad? But then there's the other part where like, once I'm in a relationship where I'm dating now, I feel like my brain starts sabotaging me in the other direction of like, why I should keep it going, why I should stay. Even when it's like, 10,000 things are written on the wall of this probably isn't a great match for me. The now leaving that and going back out onto the field or whatever. I mean, that's a whole nother, like the other half negative deal with my occurring of dating. Again, like it's almost like our brains work against us in both sides.
They do. Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: They absolutely do Sarah. And I think that's the challenge, right? Cause we were talking about like what work people need to do to prep, prep and heal their heart to even deal with the dating world. Then once you're in the dating world, you, then there's all kinds of other things to have to deal with.
Because we will want to self sabotage.
We will absolutely want to kill it off. That's human. And then we have to keep shifting our thoughts. Like I'm dating this incredible, man. Right now, like on my fulfillment list is that we connect and go deep spiritually, mentally, intellectually, like all those different levels.
And I'm a little bit like no way. This is way too good to be true. Like pinch me, it feels surreal. It's it feels like no way, but that's just the brain catching up with. You've just created what you wanted in this fulfillment list specifically. To what you want. And I tell people in the fulfillment, let's do not put what you don't want, because we all know when you share what you don't want. Like when I was like getting, you know, when I was in my thirties, I'm like, I don't want an alcoholic like my dad. Well guess who I was attracting? All the alcoholics. So I had to shift it to, I want somebody that's healthy, someone that's a mild drinker. So I've attracted this man into my life that if I could puzzle piece everybody together, it would be him and I am, I want to kill it off, like no way, no way, no way. But that's the work to be done. And part of still the healing work, like the preparation is great, but then there's more healing work, I think is what you're pointing to when you're now in something that your brain actually can't even grasp.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I watched my, I can, my, my analytical side can spin between, Oh, this is me killing off a possibility, this is me justifying why it's never going to work. To the other side of I'm ignoring some sort of like truth, you know, and, and like that, it's like, it just makes me nuts.
I ...
Suzanne Muller: Yeah but that's what your fulfillment list is for. To keep it factual, to keep it logica, to keep it practical.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. Totally and that's (inaudible) you and I have done this work together and not invalidating your coaching strategy at all. I still have my nooks and crannies yet to (laughs) heal, but the tools I have forever, you know, and I can actually in revisiting this conversation, I can even see the place where I'm like, yeah, yeah, I didn't want to look at that.
I don't want to, I don't want to go back and check the fulfillment list. I, you know, like whatever that
Suzanne Muller: Isn't that interesting. And then the other thing about the fulfillment list is once you go date people, you can go update it. We'll go take a look at it. I must look at my fulfillment list every week. Maybe there are things to add or change or shift.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. Yeah.
So a slight, not really change. I mean, not, not changing topic, but something else that kind of occurs to me is like, on that more spiritual level, right? I, I have, I've had the sense and the experience, and this is one of those, like this isn't really the truth, but it's a pretty amazing way to look at life that like human beings in our pure unadulterated, untraumatized states are like beaming balls of love.
You know, when I've been with people in my personal work and in my coaching work, my, you know, my, my clientele, well, as they heal, it's like what shows up is deeper states of love, more compassion, more acceptance on that. Like not resignation acceptance, like, Oh, I just got to deal with it. But like truly like, like grace and ease and peace of mind and all of that.
That's what shows up. So like, dumb million dollar question. Why do you think it's so hard for us in this area? If like our pure state spiritually is love, but it seems like this is like a massive area that everybody just struggles with. Cause I mean, we have inherited a whole business structure of marriage.
That is I think more or less disintegrating, like, like this is the first time in human history, written human history. The way we do it right now, or at least, I don't know, I'm not a histologist. Like last 3000 years, women are literally not dependent on men for their survival. So the whole game changed.
And then that also altered men's experience of purpose. And. Belonging and getting to be fulfilled. So like, like we kind of have shifted this whole thing. And I've heard some people even say like the concept of even being able to marry for love is like a new luxury. Like that just wasn't even a luxury we had.
So there's like, whatever that is of all of our history. But like when I look spiritually and at myself and spiritual practices, it's like the core of everything I see go back to love, acceptance, belonging. So like what gives? Why do we suck at this?
Suzanne Muller: Yeah, that's really great. I love that you share that Sarah.
So articulately, because it kind of goes back to the first healing exercise that I do with clients, which is really when... you're right. People can beam and they can shine their love and they feel love and they can be loved and they can see love, when they have their leftovers, their relationship leftovers I'll call it, out. But most of the time though, Sarah people are clogged with hurts, resentment, anger, sadness, whether it's from their first love when they were 10 years old or their high school sweetheart, or their college, but they just kind of blow it off like, Oh, it was so long ago. I'm fine. But it's actually sitting on them like an invisible weight of potatoes on their back. That it's heavy. But they can't see it. Or how many people over 40 have been married once or twice already, or they've been in a one year or five year relationship. All of that stuff is what I think heavily burdens people's hearts, Sarah, and then they just kind of get busy and they brush it off. Like it's no big deal and people wonder why they're in these unhealthy patterns attracting the same kind of people to them. So I do this verbal exercise and then there's a chapter in my book called lovable, and I'm just going to show it really fast, Lovable.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yay!
Suzanne Muller: Yay. Practice in lovable and chapter number two called "Lighen the Load." People have got it. Like you healed them, right?
You heal their body, their soul, their nutrition, right. You heal them physically. But if people have a clogged heart, they have this very limited capacity to love themselves, love others, be loved because they're clogged. So in this exercise, I get out all the crap and then they feel lighter. They're like, wow, I just feel so much lighter freer and happier.
And that's where it compliments your work that you do as well because people can't see it. They just kind of brush it off and they think it's no big deal. It's a big deal in this area of life when it comes to love, dating, relationships. And I'm really happy that you're bringing it to the surface.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. I mean, so at the top of my treatment plan, you know, and I'm an expert nutrition, I use herbs, I use homeopathy. I work with the biochemistry of the body to shift symptoms and disease states towards health. Like that's what a naturopath does. Yes. And the very top of my treatment plan, there's this quote, which is health exists in the body the degree to which we're willing to love ourselves and disease exists in the body and the degree to which we resist love.
And that's kind of the nice way of saying it because I actually experience it more like disease exists in the body, the degree to which there's self hatred. Now I'm going to put a caveat that I know there's like headache disorders and there are inherited disease states and there's a whole thing. But now what we're learning with epigenetics and the fluctuations of how disease toxicity and nutritional states impacted our gene expression. We're discovering that traumas, that our grandparents, great grandparents and, and like literally genetic descent, the traumas, they went through impact our gene expression, including World War II, the Holocaust, the Great Depression and back. In animal studies, we see things that happen to a mouse can impact 80 generations.
Suzanne Muller: Wow.
Sarah Marshall, ND: So that's in a mouse, which actually we have a lot of genetic similarity too, because we're not as funny as it is. It actually doesn't take very many genes to be the
difference between a mouse and a human,
as it turns out. And that, you know, so w we've only been looking back, I mean, they say that cancer prediction is more comes from your maternal grandmother.
So your mother's mother, her health, her state of life. What she dealt with is one of the better predictors of whether or not you're going to end up manifesting cancer versus so many other factors like carcinogens and toxicity and the places, you know, and it's like, that's only looking back two generations.
And so if we look at, you know, our whole history in America and slavery and what the Native Americans have had to deal with, and then who we were as, you know, for the white classes, the perpetrators of that, and the trauma that, that holds in your body, like there's a world that has been impacting where we're at in a disease state now.
So like, I do see love as just about the most critical, special sauce. I don't know, what do we want to call it? Right. It's in this process for everything we deal with and that place of being able to like, love ourselves, be compassionate with ourselves, you know, except where we're at. Take the next loving, caring, nurturing action.
And what I've seen is that does open up people in their physical health, but then something funny also happens where a lot of my clients will start to pursue new careers. They'll start to fulfill projects that they've always wanted to do. Dreams start to open up again. Cause like, it's really hard to dream when you're in crisis.
It's just like, oh, there's no creativity there.
Suzanne Muller: It's very difficult.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Which I kind of see is what you know, by you unclogging the love pathways, right? It's like, It's like emotional bypass surgery and you're not really bypassing. You're actually scrubbing them out. (inaudible)
Suzanne Muller: Right,
Like a heart doctor, exactly. (inaudible) Yup, absolutely. Yeah. I think you're spot on and you know, I know the work you do is just.
phenomenal, but, but what I have seen is when people really forgive them, like I have made a ton of mistakes, man I have..But living in regret is not a very powerful place to live. So I have to do work with people to forgive themselves, which normally is the hardest place for people to forgive that with mistakes that they've made and then forgive the other person, like no! I don't want to, because that makes it right and it makes it okay what they did to me. And I have to be like, No, it doesn't, it doesn't make it okay. And it doesn't make it right. It's when they actually can forgive. It's like you can feel this whoosh and they have to get that like, no, it is you giving yourself a freedom pill. Basically. You give yourself access to having that relationship that you want because you're willing to do the work. And as one human being to another, you forgive yourself because you just deserve forgiveness. And you can forgive another because you let it go out of yourself and you're not holding onto it, which as, you know, Sarah can cause diseases and things like that when people hold that stuff inside, that they're pissed off about that they're angry about that they're like, I don't want to pay that much alimony or child support. I mean, all that stuff can get people like angry and hold it inside causing, you know, patterns or disease or ailments, things like that. So that's what I, that's the kind of other work that I will do with people. Like it takes something cause people are like, no, I don't want to forgive. I don't want to, but then I have to really guide them through why it's important.
Sarah Marshall, ND: And I mean, I've been on both sides of the fence of I've experienced the freedom. And, and the grace and the love it's literally like, to me, my experience is forgiveness is literally the key that unlocks the door that gives me access.
Like, it just is like, I mean, more than any other. You know, cleaning up my word, taking care of broken agreements. Like all of that is incredible. Like, you know, doing the work and being, you know, I'm, I'm a performance junkie I've been known to be called. Like, you know, when all else fails, I'll take a new action just to see what happens like, and if I really get stuck in something, I just blow the whole thing up and I change it. I moved to a new city. I changed, you know, just like I'm like, well, now the cards fell a new direction. It'll give me something new to do. But it's like, I've noticed the place where sometimes I do that out of a distraction so that I don't have to go to this, those core places. Like, as I, as I've gotten older and I'm about to turn 40 as I've come up to this point in my life, what I've noticed is that the real challenge has been sitting still, getting quiet and like seeing what's like in there that gets bubbled up. And man, it's like on one hand, I literally know the power of forgiveness. I've experienced it in myself, in others when it's like the dam breaks. It just lets go. And equally. I have some dams that I'm like "no!" (laughs) I don't wanna! Ah!
God and it's just like...
Suzanne Muller: when you, or me or someone finds the courage to apologize for something or ask for forgiveness about something. It is like a weight gets lifted in a way that it's experiential.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Mhmm. Yeah. I have, and I've had people to say, well, do you really think I need to make the phone call? Can't I just, and it just depends, you know, like sometimes I think, yeah, maybe you can just like write a practice letter or journal about it or get in communication with a friend about it.
But there's also something massive about being willing to take that risk, to get in communication in a safe way. Right? Like, I know there's a lot of different contexts of relationships and there are certain times where it's like, like, you know, my parents are practicing Buddhists and I don't fully claim it as my spirituality, but it's an element I've been influenced by Buddhism a lot.
And they talk about. Yes, the foundational principle of Buddhism is compassion and, you know, being with anyone suffering and loving them through it. But then there's also with discernment and wisdom, which is really critical, you know, like it doesn't mean throw your door open and just like, let the world come sleep on your couch.
Like that may not be the most decisive or wise position to do. So like that also comes in for me. Cause I, I think. One of my childhood interpretations. And I wouldn't even say like, my mom did this to me was the way I interpreted things. But I grew up in a household where it was see the good in everyone and always give them the benefit of the doubt.
And yeah, it's a very loving, compassionate place, but I've watched myself swing to the other extreme where like, I will be in some pretty unhealthy circumstances for my own emotional psyche going, oh, but I just see the good in this person and this is what they really intend and love. And it's like, that's been one of my big challenges is to actually be able to have boundaries and be like, this doesn't work for me.
Suzanne Muller: Yes. It's brilliant. It's really brilliant. And that's points to boundaries. I had to do that with my father. He was still narcissistic bipolar and alcoholic till the day he died. (Sarah: Hmm.) And I had to, like, when I saw him, I saw him for an hour. I saw him out in public and that was me loving and honoring my self and still enjoying him to an extent, I knew the extent in which I could get close to him and where it was unsafe.
And that's a really great point.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. And I still say that's. One of my, you know, where I've kind of swung too, is like, I'll just be alone. Then no one will get to me. And like there's some definite still work to do inside of that, you know? Or there's, there's some nooks and crannies for sure to unwind that, that piece for me personally.
I don't know, we didn't have to turn this into a personal coaching session, but like, it's hard not to. I mean, this is like, I'm going to just come out and say it. And my listeners would probably start to figure this out. One of the things I've loved about this project is like where it's taken me and it's inescapable for me to do an episode without it impacting me or like being the thing I'm at work on. It's like, it's like no coincidence which person ends up scheduling on my calendar at what time? And then suddenly like all my, I mean, this morning I was journaling about like, okay, what is it, Sarah? And like this conversation and this debate about, you know, and I don't really think it's a debate, but it's, this is like, what it's like for me on the court is like, well do I take care of myself or do I take care of them?
Do I honor you and my own integrity, my own heart, or do I make them happy? And there's all those confounding, like, relationships are about compromise and relationships are hard. And like, I think there's places where there's validity in that, but then there's other places where that actually becomes part of the unhealthy patterns that I propagate.
I'm still sorting out that space. Like to me, it occurs like. I would be so mean to exert certain boundaries, but then I think to outside people, they're like, I'm sorry. Did you say something? But inside my head, it's like that would be so mean for me to ask for that, that I want, that works for me.
Suzanne Muller: Isn't that interesting that you call it mean. What if it's just self honoring and self-respect, and then they gain so much more respect for you because you do honor yourself.
What if that's just a quick context shift?
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: But it's hard to ask for what people need and what they want. I'm I'm in that, you know, what I hear is like also though the fear versus love right? Fear versus love, fear versus love. And we can get ourselves into that place of like fear and scared and kill it off and not say what we want, but that's going to kill it off anyway, if we don't.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: I've been practicing is that world of like, honoring myself and what are my boundaries and, you know, I've been dating this guy for a month and it's like this beautiful, soulful, spiritual connection between us. And it's very easy. I haven't been in a relationship like this. I mean, we're not, (inaudible) we're in a dating exclusively status right now.
However, it's really easy because I have raised my vibration. I have done my work. I have decluttered my life physically, emotionally, spiritually. Like I am light as a feather right now inside of me. There's like nothing weighing me down right now. Nothing. Covid? That ain't weighing me down at all. Like I am on top of my head game and therefore I've manifested it, brought somebody to me, Sarah, that.
It feels like a great match for me. And we're all, he's already 85% of my fulfillment list even after a month. And I'm pinching myself in that, like no way. and there's fear that comes up and then we just talk about it because that's human. Yeah.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. And I, you know, funny, cause like on one hand I can easily share my traps, like where I watch myself get stuck.
But then I also do know when I have to just kind of pull myself out that. That love is inclusive and fun. Fear is where there's the me versus them. The like, is it me? Is it them? Does it me? If I'm even asking that question, I can guarantee you I'm probably already in some sort of a fear pattern versus when it's like, I mean, it sounds kind of funny, like.
Well, if I do, what's loving, it's just, what's loving period. Like it, it falls, it's like sunshine, it falls universally on whatever it touches, you know? And it's like... And that has been a practice for me of coming out and, and my own, you call it raising your vibration. You know, I would say like, for me, it's like spiritual maturity, raising my vibration, operating as like more the mature adult fulfilled self than the scared, nervous kid that is trying to figure out how she's going to get loved or how she's gonna, you know, take whatever that is. Right. And I see my own patterns and like my relationships, my family, my parents are rocking. I mean, like I can spend three, four weeks straight with my parents, which many people are like, WHAT, and you know, and uninterrupted time and we've worked through a lot of our stuff. And when I was a kiddo, there was a lot about me being the peacekeeper, me, making sure everybody was happy, there being arguments and upsets and, and disagreements in the household around me. And like all the work I would go to to try and ensure that everybody was healthy and happy.
Of course, I ended up as a doctor, you know. And, but it was always like, For them at my expense. And I literally would have extreme asthma attacks and ended up in the hospital when my dad and my sister were in the biggest fights, they'd get in a fight. I go to the emergency room and it was like clockwork.
And so there was this young childhood pattern of internalizing the upset and then this survival need to keep everyone happy. And like,
Suzanne Muller: At your expense.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Man, that is like, I even, I know it, I see it. I've written about it. Be like, and it just like, but it comes up and gets me all the time. Particularly as soon as I get into, you know, a non-casual dating situation, like when it's casual, I'm fine. Totally good. But as soon as like there's more at stake and it's on the line and like, is this going to become a relationship? What kind of relationship do we want it to be? Like, then it'll just that whole way of being snaps forward. Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: Isn't that interesting. It's good though. That you can see your humanity, Sarah.
And do you talk about it with your dates that that's there for?
Sarah Marshall, ND: Oooh. That would probably be a good idea. (both laugh)
Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: I think that's what I most I'll call it, impressed with right now with this guy that I'm dating, is the level of transparency and honesty and straightforwardness between us. It's like, everything is up on the table.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: And we have choice every step of the way, whether or not we want to continue with it. And I know that's who you are, (Sarah: yeah) you don't operate like that. People operate in the dating world like, Oh my God, I don't want to tell them that. Okay. And then maybe what we've been dating for three months, six months, then I'll tell them. No. What if people could get it up front and honest? Actually, I gained respect for him.
I gained adoration for him that he was that honest with me. And then that built trust (Sarah: mmm) as well, like yay, I don't have to pull stuff out of him. Yay I don't have to bring up all the conversations. It's like this two-way street kind of teamwork feeling.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it's, that's one where like, again, I think I'm just building muscle around it and I see it around me too, but it's like, it's such a funny irony that, well, I can't be totally honest or the relationship would end. But
Suzanne Muller: That is irony. (laughs)
Sarah Marshall, ND: If you're not totally honest what relationship are you, you know, it's like, it's that, like, if I was really honest, I was really straight, this probably wouldn't work out and I don't want, wait a minute, but like, what do you know? And, and it's this funny pit, right? And I think the thing that is where. I still probably have some healing to do and you know, I'm literally in my parents' house right now. I spent the last week with my, my parents and, and again, like amazing relationship, but I've been noticing some childhood patterns, like, you know, I hang out around my parents and I'll watch these. I have ways of being like ways of operating around my parents that I don't do around anybody else. And I watch myself change and I'm like, okay, what is that? That's like an old ingrained pattern. Right. And so I've been looking at some of this stuff and there is this like, like almost like my internal compass or my sense of my truth, disintegrates. It's like, I can't access it if I get into a certain place like I don't like if you ask me, well, what, what, what do you need to be honest about? I go blank.
Suzanne Muller: Interesting.
Sarah Marshall, ND: So that's, something like, I, you know, I've also been
Suzanne Muller: So like a freeze pattern?
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: Fight, flight, or freeze?
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah and when I was younger, like in my teens and my twenties and I'd get into arguments, I would literally just shut down and they'd be like, what are you thinking?
I'd be like, There's nothing there. Like my brain just goes blank. That's a old, old, old, old trauma pattern. And I don't even know. And like, you know, this is me getting really fascinated by it, but I suspect because you know, our brains develop through the things that happened to us as a kid and how we create survival strategies and coping mechanisms.
There's something to the fact... I had my first asthma attack when I was nine months old. But I was pre-verbal. So I had the experience of not being able to breathe and not being able to communicate at the same time. And I can pretty much guarantee there's something to this cause like I feel choked up right now, even talking about it.
And so it's like, cause I've done a ton of transformational work and a lot of coaching work and a lot of... around the conscious stuff. And I think the place that, I mean, all I can say is like, it's gotta be trapped somewhere in my subconscious. It's gotta be coming from something. Deeper or nonverbal or whatever, 'cause like, you know, and I think that for people who I've come into a lot of inherited trauma from their family lineage, which there is in my family, you know, we talk openly about it, but my mom's childhood was really intense. And if you want to learn about it, you can go to episode four. Cause she was one of my interviewees on this and she is amazing about telling her story of healing, you know?
And, and then, you know, through even my dad's side, particularly the women on my dad's side, what they had to deal with and go through. And so I think that like there may be a piece too, for some of like, for me, I'm like, what am I nuts? Like, why can I not figure this out? But that might be the clue of like, there's some stuff in the nonverbal or in the subconscious that goes, that runs even deeper, you know?
Suzanne Muller: Yes.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah.
Great. We're getting stuff sorted out right here. (both laugh) Hopefully our listeners are too, as they're hearing this, like why, why I even want you here in, this is like the, the hundreds of people you've worked with the experience of watching people. Like, to me on my side of this, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Suzanne healing a heart. 1Uh-huh. That's a freaking mystery healing, heart disease. No problem. Change your cholesterol levels. I got you decreasing your autoimmune disease. I'm all over it. Right. And there's a physical thing, but like this area I'm over here on the side of the fence of like, dude, you gotta be kidding me. Like that's a mystery, but you have all these distinctions like, well actually I've seen it hundreds of times.
Suzanne Muller: And you know what I see what's beautiful about got it. Or miraculous or however we want to call it is once people get all that kind of crap out of their heart, I've seen love happen really fast for people like I, I have this lady she's 71 years old, has been married four times, four times and she's still like, I want a partner. I want a companion for the rest of my life. And we cleared out her leftovers from some, two of her exes. And she met this guy within three months and they're now in a relationship and they're happy campers. They're just happy as clams. They travel together. And even sometimes I get blown away that it can happen of this fast.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: And it's beautiful. It's miraculous. It's like the unexpected.
Sarah Marshall, ND: So there isn't really anybody that's in the "I'm sorry, I can't help you" category.
Suzanne Muller: I never look at anybody (Sarah laughs) some people might take a little longer than others and other people might have some deeper work to do. I'm not a psychotherapist. I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a therapist. I'm very clear about that. And, you know, I can only work with what people tell me, but I do the preparation exercises that I've shared in this call. And then if there's deeper work to do. You know, if something's not working, you know, there's childhood trauma and, you know, people deal with incest and rape and all of that stuff.
And I can deal with that to an extent, but you know, there might be somebody else best to address that. Cause that is deep, that can get into like the core of people's being.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. Yeah. There's, you know, an amazing field is starting to develop now in psychology of people who are experts in healing trauma.
Like I, I mean, I don't actually know the history of it, but my sense is that that's gotta be relatively a new field really, at least the last 20, 25 years, that, that that's even a possibility. And I, actually I'll point people to this. I just watched the documentary, "Cracked Up: The Darrell Hammond Story."
Darrell Hammond was the longest running Saturday night live. actor ever. And he went very public with a book and then a play and now a documentary on his life story of childhood trauma and how that shaped what he's dealt with his whole life with alcoholism. And I mean, relationships? Forget about it.
He was like, I can't. Healthfully even be in a love partnership and all of that. And, and it's stunning and it's beautiful and it, and it was just an incredible experience. Interesting, I probably was preparing for this episode, watching it the other night. and one of the things that his psychologist, the one that kind of like ultimately made the difference with him, he said, it's not mental illness. It's mental injury. (Suzanne: oooo) That you are dealing with what you're dealing with because your brain created these ways to cope and strategize in a positive way to create survival mechanisms, to deal with the trauma. And that there are things that we experienced as children or adults, right.
That traumatize us and the way our brain deals with it is they literally can't be with what happened. So that part of the brain just gets closed off.
Suzanne Muller: Yes, it has to. Mhmm.
Sarah Marshall, ND: That's the only way to survive. Cause if you were going to be with it, it would be like, So much or the death of the soul or whatever that ends up being.
So it's, so in comprehensible, like in this particular case that he shares about, you know, his, most of the abusive come from his mother and it's like the very person who's supposed to be your ultimate caretaker, your ultimate safety zone is the one where the harm and traumas coming from. And it was like his little kid brain just couldn't do anything with that so it separated and separated and separated, separated. And like, one of the diagnoses people had said was, you know, he was schizophrenic, multiple personality, interestingly enough, he had 109 different impersonations that he did on Saturday Night Live. He's the guy that played Bill Clinton for 12 years, you know? And, and like literally his impersonations of other people were so precise, it like blew people away cause there was (Suzanne: how healing though for him to express it) like, no, him. (Suzanne: Yes!) Right?
And I mean, And so I just it'll be in the show notes, the reference to this documentary, cause it was just stunning, but it gave me a whole nother perspective. And I just love that concept, that when we look at people and they have a diagnosis, we call mental illness, it's not an illness, really what we're now learning about trauma, they're mental injuries and they're actually the brain doing the best thing it knows how to do to survive and cope given the circumstances it was in.
Suzanne Muller: That is brilliant. Sarah, I can get it, the mental injury, the emotional injury. And I think people think that at some point it's just gone. It's not gone. I believe that there's layers, which, which, you know, I took the self defense class. The other day was about adrenal response protection of like, if somebody attacks you from, you know, verbally attacks you or you know, it was really fun. It was like my first self defense class where I literally was like, I have to hit somebody, which I never did.
Right. And we started with voice, like, how do you use your voice to scare someone away? And the martial arts instructor, he started with like this really loud, "HEY!" and I, we're all wearing our masks, I took my mask off and it reminded me of my father screaming at me. And I took my mask off and I started crying and I just let the other layer of the fear come out.
Like just his loudness scared the crap out of me and remind, took me back to my father and then I was able to get through the exercise and they taught us how to defend ourselves. And, you know, he was in a big Michelin man outfit. We got to like kick him in the groin and all that, but it was like a physical release in addition to an emotional release, like it just another layer of childhood memories. Which, I know you probably do some of that as well.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's, it's interesting. I see it come up when people do detoxes, like physical detoxes and, you know, it's really interesting because we kind of throw that around like no big deal in our culture, like, Oh, just do, just do a water fast, just take on a juice cleanse, just do the master cleanse, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And like, I mean, and this is historically throughout natural medicine of many different genres is that, you know, it was known that if you're going to go into that state of doing a deep cleanse of the actual literal toxins and heavy metal and trapped physical things, things that are impairing your body from healing, that is always going to go out with emotional release. And sometimes like he hidden memories that have been stuck in different body parts and things like that and like in Chinese medicine, they get way more into the specifics of fear in our kidneys, and anger in our liver and grief in our lungs. And like all those kinds of, of trends.
But I see it a lot, like on both sides where I also will do work with people where we specifically are like helping their liver heal. And for like the two months we're doing it, their wife is like, what the heck? He's so irritable. He's so frustrated. He's so short, dah, dah, dah, dah. And then we get to the other end and like, Oh my God, what'd you do my husband? He's like the nicest person in the world. And I'm like, we did a liver cleanse. We got the anger out (inaudible)
Suzanne Muller: All the toxins. I love that you pointed to that, cause I tell people that not only like the peeling guy cleaning out the leftovers from exes or the past is in the heart, it's in the blood cells, it's in the soul, it's in the mind, it is actually getting it all out of the stuff. That's physically all in you that people can't see. It's like a total cleanse that you're talking about. Total body cleanse.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. I've actually seen a strong parallel with people who actually display heavy metal toxicity. Like heavy metals are one of the most toxic things on the planet to our bodies. They literally get trapped in our system. Now what's interesting is there are some people that based on their career path, unfortunately, hairdressers in particular, who work with a lot of chemicals, dying people's hair and artists who have a lot of heavy metal exposure through the paints and the substances they use.
And then there's a few other people in different types of industry they'll have higher exposure, but I actually find it's not like all people who work in a salon get sick. Not all people who were exposed to paints get sick, cause it's like some people are more prone to be like a sponge and hold on to the heavy metals and other people go, Oh, this is toxic for me.
And they let it go. And it's just like dating and relationships. Oh, this person's not good for me. They move on. And what I've seen is a really strong trend of people who have childhoods, where they had to tolerate the intolerable. Their psyches came to have to deal with levels of abuse and trauma in their childhood, that it became normal to be under those circumstances.
Their body has the same imprint, their body's like mercury, whatever? Lead. Sure. And they don't detoxify it. And then I'm a big proponent of very slow, purposeful, heavy metal detoxification. So like I have a really gentle way of going about it and I don't even start that kind of work until we've like built up their energy systems and gotten them on a clean diet. Like I want the reserve tanks with something in it. So we're not like exhausting them on top of, so there's a whole system that it makes sense physiologically, but there's actually a whole mental and emotional preparedness that often when we do do it, there'll be dreams that happen and things that come up and, and again, like I'm not a therapist, I'm not a counselor.
So there'll be a point where it may be warranted that they're actually working with a mental health expert at the same time to work through stuff that surfaces while we're literally just doing, just doing a heavy metal detoxification or a cleanse of that type, like it's literally like the mirror image of the body and our lives together.
Suzanne Muller: Wow. How powerful. Phew.
Sarah Marshall, ND: So much easier to do for other people too. (laughs) I mean, I do do the work myself, just like, I know you do. (Suzanne: you do, you do.) That's part of it. They totally do.
Suzanne Muller: Exactly! It's part of our journey. It's why we're good at what we do. Cause we have to do the work. Honestly, we have to walk our walk and talk our talk. I can, you know, you share about your journey. And so do I.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Always.
Suzanne Muller: It's not always pretty. Yeah,
Sarah Marshall, ND: No, but you know, I, and I, I love getting to relate to my clients in that way too, and share where I've been and where I'm still at work on things in my life, but then also the huge grounds. I mean, my childhood lung issues and immune system issues, and that eventually did become a chronic state of anxiety and seasonal depression.
And like I was 24 years old dealing with all of that going into medical school and, you know, lucked out that I had some innate part of me, some soul fulfilling part of me that said, you need to study natural medicine. And that was what opened the doorways. And by the age 32, I had no chronic disease. I had reversed all of it. Gone.
And now not so much the deep physical manifestations, but the. Emotional echoes and some of the like, we'll call it my soul's karma, which for me is empowering to think about it as like, Oh, this has been around for multiple lifetimes and it's not just like, there's something wrong with me now. It's like, Oh, maybe I brought some baggage with me that I like, decided to save for the next lifetime and handle it now where I'm more capable.
Right. Like, I don't know. That's just empowers me in thinking about it in that way.
Suzanne Muller: Yes. That's like the multiple layers that you're discovering. We're all discovering,
Sarah Marshall, ND: Mhmm. And recognizing that, like, while it seems so personal, when I do hear about my mother's story and my grandmother's story and my great grandmother's story and like, like the history of my family, I start to recognize like, Holy hell, we've come so far.
And yes, there's still stuff I deal with. But compared to, you know, where my grandmother was at at 18 years old and pregnant and working out life and you know, all the things that in 1925 and, and back and back and back, like, it's also pretty amazing how far we have come and what's now possible. And that we can even sit and have conversations about picking the perfect, not perfect, but like, you know, the right match, that soul fulfilling relationship match, because we're not in conversations anymore of survival and you know, not all of us, right? Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: And we're not in conversations of, wow we want to have sex, but we got to get married. Oh, wow we're in love? Okay. That means we're going to get married. No, there's a whole lot (inaudible) falling in love is just the first step. And then there's a, is it healthy? Are there the pieces place to have this relationship work?
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah, yeah.
Suzanne Muller: I had a dollar for every person that was like, Oh my God, I shouldn't have gotten married. I was walking down the aisle and I knew I shouldn't have done that. Oh my God.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah.
Suzanne Muller: People make mistakes. We've all made mistakes. We've all done it. And it's learning from those mistakes, you know, putting things in place that will help us be better daters and be better in relationships. Like I feel like I'm a totally different person in this experience right now than I ever have been in my life. I'm in such a good, good, healthy place.
Sarah Marshall, ND: That's awesome. That's so good. And I'm already thinking of the next conversation. I'm like, yeah. And then there's all these worlds opening up for people around, like, I mean, there's polyamory and there's gender fluidity and there's all of these men. And I know that that's sort of on the edges of certain people's, you know, cultural norms, but it's opening.
I mean, we're seeing so much more fluidity and possibility of like really authentic self expression. That's breaking down the confines of "monogamy is the only good relationship and it has to between a man and a woman," there's just these worlds happening for people to truly be who they are and experience.
And, and I'm even noticing where that's opening things up for me. And I generally consider myself a relatively straight, normal, like in that, that normative culture, right? That's generally where I trend, but the fact that that's even doors are opening has given me freedom of just being, you know? And, and asking questions, is this really what I want? Or is this just what culture handed to me?
Suzanne Muller: Right! Or is this constraining for me? (Sarah: yeah) What gives me freedom? So many options, so many conversations.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Totally. Oh my God, Suzanne. Thank you so much. This has been like quite, quite the dance. Thank you for bringing your expertise and your love and your authenticity and sharing your heart with us.
Suzanne Muller: Thank you. This has been an amazing conversation, Sarah. Thanks for doing this. (inaudible)
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. Yeah. Let's keep getting it out there. You can heal. It's possible. People have done it. Go find ones ahead of you, you know? Yeah. (Suzanne: love it) So good. And you've got your book "Lovable" Am I saying that, right?
Suzanne Muller: Yes. "Lovable"
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. And that's amazing set of tools and exercises for people and then we'll make sure in the show notes, they know how to connect with you. And, you know, you are just a plethora and wealth of resources and you often are on radio shows and do interviews. And so there's lots of ways to learn from you and connect with you and the work that you do. And so thank you for being out there and healing the human heart.
Suzanne Muller: Thank you
Sarah Marshall, ND: So good. All right, Suzanne, till next time.
Thanks to today's guest Suzanne Muller for her passion and stand for love in our lives. For a full transcript and all the resources of today's show, visit SarahMarshallND.com/podcast. You can learn more about finding your own healing by going to SarahMarshallND.com or following me on Instagram at @SarahMarshallND. Thanks to our music composer, Roddy Nikpour, and our editor, Kendra Vicken. We'll see you next time.