Olav Stahl on Transforming Lives Through Table Tennis
Today's guest Olav Stahl of Germany, graces us with a zest for life and table tennis. In today's episode, where we discover the transformative power of actually looking at the ball in dealing with dementia, PTSD, and life.
Referenced in the Show
References from Olav:
Olav’s Bio
Olav Stahl works as a sports therapist, language learning teacher and peak performance coach in Germany and the UK.
His approach is: Anything is possible – we just have to figure out how to get there, take the necessary steps and might even have fun during the process.
He has applied his unique therapeutic approach to use table tennis coupled with encouragement in order to tackle all sorts of mental health issues like PTSD or cognitive health issues like dementia in workshops for the NHS (National Health Service UK), the big mental health charity MIND and in research projects with neuroscientists from King’s College London. This collaboration was featured in the BBC documentary “How To Stay Young” on television.
At the same time he hosts ping pong events and provides table tennis coaching for different celebrities like the Coronation Street and Hollyoaks cast, the million dollar shoe designer Stuart Weitzman and one of the largest private equity companies in the world Coller Capital.
You can contact Olav by email: olav.stahl@web.de
Full Transcript
Sarah Marshall ND: Welcome to HEAL. Today's guest Olav Stahl of Germany, graces us with a zest for life and table tennis. In today's episode, where we discover the transformative power of actually looking at the ball in dealing with dementia, PTSD, and life. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Marshall.
So let's actually like get into it and who you are and what you're up to. So Olav Stahl, did I pronounce that correctly? How do you
Olav Stahl: pronounce it?
Yep, yep. Olav Stahl.
Olav
Sarah Marshall ND: Stahl. So, I have a funny, tiny story is my very, very, very, very, very first boyfriend in the sixth grade was Todd
Olav Stahl: Stahl.
(Olav: ahh wow) And so I saw your last name and I was like
it's coming back. (both laugh)
And
Sarah Marshall ND: what do you do in the world?
Olav Stahl: So, so I work as a sports therapist using table tennis, yeah. To, to support people who have had trauma and also people who were suffering from dementia and Alzheimer's, and, there has been a few studies or there was one study in the nineties, in Japan that, that suggest that that table tennis might be good for the brain. And now in the last years we did a few studies and also a documentary film from the BBC where I was training and coaching people. And then some brain scientists from the Kings college, London, they would yeah, do brain tests, brain scans, and also check how the emotions developed and to demonstrate that table tennis is great for the brain.
That's awesome.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah. And so what are like, what do you see that happens? I mean, cause at one level I can imagine that for people sports therapy, they're like, Oh yeah, they get more coordinated, but I have a feeling there's more to it
Olav Stahl: than that.
I also think so. I mean, first of all, I have to, I have to say, even though they're on all these studies and, and even though I think table tennis is amazing for the brain, I think there's probably a hundred other things that are probably as important or even more important if you have dementia or Alzheimer's. Like nutrition, I'm, I'm a hundred percent certain that nutrition is way more powerful than tabletop.
But I think personally, but, but I have to say, you have to start somewhere. And it's just great to start with table tennis, because you could just buy a racket and take a ball and bounce it up and change back and forth and back and forth. You could just do these exercises at home. You could play against the wall.
You could use a kitchen table, put it near the wall, play against the wall. You can play against your husband, against your kids against neighbors. It's so much fun and you're doing something that is good for you. And it's not just the coordination. As I said, I would say that there is, there's a very famous study.
Maybe you've heard of it. It's called The Nun Study. They, they, they were examining nuns, after they died and they basically look into their brains. None of these nuns had Any signs of dementia. They were fully functioning as, as nuns. They were very old, but working till the age of a hundred or 95.
So it wasn't American nuns, but these nuns, when they looked into their brains, after they died, they had brains totally filled with amyloid plaques, they looked like typical Alzheimer brains.
Wow.
But they did, the nuns didn't have these symptoms of Alzheimer's. So what the scientists thought, what they concluded was the following. They said, the reason why these nuns, despite having a completely messed up brain would be able to function fully. Was they still had a goal in life. They had a goal, they had a purpose in life. It's important to have a purpose. Secondly, these nuns, they had a view of the world worldview that gave them power.
Yeah. Like we do something for the community by being a nun by, by praying to God, (Sarah: yeah) they had a wealth. And that's something that often lacks for people who, who developed dementia. They way it often happens when people retire. Or, or even before they retire people, maybe they might work, but they don't really have a purpose. They don't have a goal.
They don't have a vision. They're not really inspired by their work. And then if you do that and you don't really need a brain. So, and, and maybe that's how that's how dementia starts or Alzheimer's starts.
Sarah Marshall ND: And there's so many different relationships here. Cause you know, I'm on the. Knowledge of the nutrition side.
Pretty strong. Yeah. And yet what happens is when, when we live a certain kind of life, when we, when we don't have a lot of sense of purpose or we're, we're not up to something, our other actions correlate to that. So then there's other actions happened, like, what do you do instead of that? And. Time in front of screens, social media, television, whatever that is.
And then what do you do when you're doing that? You eat certain kinds of food. There's literally like this whole relationship between it and it's, and it, it's not anecdotal. Like you can literally see the shifts that happen for people. And so the, you know, there's some in conversation that Alzheimer's essentially like type three diabetes, it's another form of diabetes and where the brain has been robbed of sufficient energy. And it doesn't have that proper nutrition because there's so much issues with the transfer of glucose at the brain level. Like that's kind of like the basic version. And that goes back to what kinds of foods people are eating. And the fact that for the first time in human history ever our fatty acid profile, the way that we consume fats has actually gone down in a negative way.
Like people might think that's crazy. There's so many fatty foods in the world, but it's the kinds of fats that we've been eating and the way we take them in and absorb them and that they're healthy and they're not rancid and they're not over cooked or over-processed. So since evolution forever, that's been one of the key factors of why our brains got bigger was because our diet allowed us to take in and consume more fats.
And our brain is literally made out of that. When we started cooking food and then certain markings and the agrarian revolution, we kept being able to expand what was possible and our, and our brains grew because of that. And so
when
Sarah Marshall ND: we've reversed that that's one of the major factors with Alzheimer's, but it's all interconnected to like, how do you feel about yourself and what are you up to? And like you said, a sense of purpose and a sense of autonomy. And what I always love in science is when you hear multiple people saying the same thing from different angles, and there's another a psychiatrist actually, I've mentioned him in other episodes, Mario Martinez, and he's from Uruguay.
And he's been studying longevity. And for a long time, we were like, Oh, it's the nutrition. Like, you know, all of these people that are centenarian that live over a hundred years, what's the diet of those cultures. And we couldn't really hang anything too much on it. I mean, eating them large amounts of fish, which goes back to the fatty acids, things like that.
But what they found was it was only 30% lifestyle. And there was only a certain percentage of it that was actually genetic related. And the rest of it was the culture that they lived in, the conversations they were in. Did they have purpose? Was it a culture that actually honored their elders as elders, as wise ones of the culture or their elders like put in assisted living homes and not a part of the regular cultural conversation.
So it's exactly
Olav Stahl: echoes that.
Yup.
That's awesome.
And it isn't, I think when you play any sports, let's say you play American football or you play rugby, or you do boxing or, or badminton or tennis. You, you, you actually do have a purpose now because you want to win that point and you want to hit that point.
You might want to play beautiful. You might want to try out new shots. So it gives you this kind of purpose. Maybe you don't want to win, but you want to have a long rally with your husband or with your neighbor or with your opponent. It gives you for that time, a purpose. And for elderly people who have, who have problems with our memory, rugby or American football, isn't the sport to go. Table tennis is. Table tennis is perfect for elderly people. You can sit in a chair, you could sit in a wheelchair and just sit there and use your arms. You can reach over the whole table unless you have very short arms and it might be that you need to just use a smaller table and you can, you kind of adjust.
So I think that's why table tennis is really, really, really, it, it, it fits, yeah, by the way, the BBC documentary, it was called how to stay young. And I think it was broadcasted about five years ago, in the UK and then later all around the world. And, I had a group of, I think it was 10 or 11 seniors. So people maybe over 60, between 60 and 80, and, these people would play twice a week, table tennis with me. And there was a con-- but they didn't have, you mentioned that they were just normal seniors volunteers and the other control group was also the same amount of people and they would twice a week walk for one hour in the park alone.
And at the end, what they found out was the doctor who was leading a study, he said, yeah, the, the, the group who walked, they actually had more new connection, more new gray matter in the brain than the group that, that did table tennis. But he said the table tennis group had better development in the prefrontal cortex.
And is that the prefrontal cortex is the area that, very fast declines when you get older. So it is really great with table tennis. Also, the prefrontal cortex is the area which is connected to, Decision-making our personality. It's, it's one of the most, maybe it's the most important area in the brain.
And that was growing more after 10 weeks of playing twice a week, table tennis. And, and, and yeah, so those are the doctors said, I recommend walk to a table tennis club, played a round of table tennis, and then walk back home. (Sarah: Yeah.) Yeah so, I think it's, it's great fun, and it's just great to learn complex, difficult new skills.
And I think I'm pretty good. And in showing people that it is actually pretty simple, if you do it step by step, and then if you, if you start with small things and build on it on another, then anybody can learn professional shots like topspin or backspin within 20 minutes. Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: Well, and that's what I was going to ask you about 'cause you mentioned that table tennis is good because it doesn't require a lot of memory function. So say more about that. Like how does that work?
Olav Stahl: Did I say that? (both laugh)
Sarah Marshall ND: Well, you said like compared to like American football or something like that, where they would need more memory?
Olav Stahl: No, no, sorry. I, I, maybe I didn't say it clearly enough. I meant something different for American football or rugby. You actually need to be able to be physically fit. Yeah. So that that's, that's why I meant it's not really suitable for somebody who is 85 years old (Sarah: ah yeah yeah) and walk on crutches, right? (Sarah: right yeah, it's not accessible to them) yeah. Table tennis. You put the crutches to the side, you sit down on a chair.
And you can play. Yeah. So it's also Badminton. Badminton is a very huge court. You have to run, you have to be physically, physically really fit. Tennis, you have to run like hell in tennis. And table tennis, you could sit, if you want to. And still, still somebody who sits can still win against me. And I'm a, I'm a good player because it's, it's all about. Yeah. How fast can you spin the ball? Yeah. How much spin can you put in the ball? How good are your reflexes?
Excellent.
That's what I meant. Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: Okay, good. Good. I'm glad I asked, (both laugh)
Olav Stahl: It's very good that you asked that.
What are some of
Sarah Marshall ND: your favorite stories? Just personally what you've seen with people you've gotten to work with where, you know, an aha moment or you got to watch it make a difference in that person's life. What are some examples of
Olav Stahl: that?
So I have to swallow because it actually makes me cry. Just thinking about this. Yeah, one of the most amazing things that happened was I was, asked to run a table tennis event for a school, primary school. And so it was actually in a table, tennis nightclub in London, there was a few tables and it's nightclubs.
They have like a bar and a restaurant, and then they have 20 table tennis tables and people can just book a table. So this nightclub called Bounds. They also have it in the US. So Bounds. they give these tables in the venue for free to schools and they even pay me so that I can teach these school kids.
So the kids come. And it was probably 70 kids. So me, I was teaching 70 kids at once. I was screaming.
Sarah Marshall ND: Okay. Now everybody watch, (Sarah laughs)
Olav Stahl: okay, look, this is how you hold the bat. And then I was making jokes and screaming and shouting, and then I said, great. Now let's everybody go in groups of five to tables, and the teachers, the PE teachers, they were just supporting whatever I commanded, they would support me. So, and I was teaching the kids and everybody had a great time and I was going from table to table and I came to a table and
suddenly the teacher said, this is Mia. Mia, she loves table tennis, but she can only serve. She can't hit the ball back yet. I said. Okay, great. That's no problem. I will teach you. And Mia actually was, I think maybe she was 8 or 9 years old and she had the down syndrome. So I'm not an expert on the down syndrome, but I guess I'm pretty sure that it also meant that her, her, her brain was maybe working a bit slower because, or maybe she wasn't able to focus or whatever, but she literally was not able to hit a ball back that came to her.
She was able to, she was able to serve out of her hand when somebody played the ball back to her, she just would miss it all the time. And, and then I applied my, my coaching technique. It's called 1-2-Hit. So I said to Mia, okay, Mia, I was teaching on how to, how to play a rally. So, when. I hit the ball.
Then I want you to say "one", I want you to say one in the exact millisecond I hit the ball. And then when the ball flies to you and when the ball is just at the net, just in the middle between you and me, at the net, I want you to say "two." and then when the ball comes to you and when you want to hit the ball, you say "hit."
So you say "one, two, hit." and as I will say together with you, and I've said, okay, teachers, we all say it together. So suddenly like the kids and the teachers, we were all saying "one, two, hit!" And, and Mia was also saying "one, two, hit." And then after one or two minutes, I think it took me one minute. She was able to hit the first ball ever in her life because what the " 1-2-Hit" does is it means you have to look at the ball because otherwise you don't know when to say one, otherwise you don't know when to say two and you don't know when to say hit. So you focus at the ball. And when you're focused at the ball, when you're seeing the ball, it means you automatically hit the ball perfectly.
It's actually something. If, if professional athletes would apply with technique, I am certain that they would be able to have a better performance because they will see the ball better and they will be faster and have (Sarah: yeah) basically better reflexes. And so she learned how to maintain it and in one or two minutes, and then, I was excited.
I was excited, then the teachers were excited and she was excited. And then, like a week later, I got a phone call and it was like, Natasha, and she said, Hey, I'm in, I'm Natasha. I'm the mother of Mia. And you taught her how to play table tennis. I said, Oh great. And then we spoke like an hour and we spoke about what the potential of Mia is and we spoke about, maybe if she wants Mia could play at the Paralympics.
Yeah. And she could start with coming to my table tennis club. I was running a big table tennis club in London called Tiger and Dragon table tennis club. And, but by the way, I came up with this name Tiger and Dragon table tennis club. So, and, one of the coaches, he was actually someone who played a few times at the Paralympics and he was a British, Paralympic national team player. Really great guy. Phillip Phillip (last name inaudible) . Amazing coach.
Yeah. So that was very inspiring. So then a few days later Mia came and, She started coming regularly and practicing maybe once a week and or maybe every two weeks, but she came and she loves it and she kept on developing and learning. And she played with the other kids who didn't have, a disability.
And, yeah, it was great.
That's
Sarah Marshall ND: incredible. I mean, there's so much in there that we can take apart. And some of it is just that for anyone, whatever, whatever level, whether we're dealing with a certain developmental disability or not, that being able to break down something that existed as a truth, this is the way it is.
And have it open this door to, like you said, the potential of Mia. That realm of possibility that was above and beyond what Mia knew about herself, what her family knew about her, you know, and then to have her be able to have this outlet of interaction, you know, and like you said, table tennis, particular things about table tennis that makes it unique and special and accessible to a lot of people.
There's other things that could fit into this, but anything in this realm that opens it up. I actually recently watched a documentary. Which now I'm going to have to come up with the name to put in the show notes, but it was bit about the world's fastest Rubik's Cube kids,
Olav Stahl: they
Sarah Marshall ND: solve the Rubik's, and there's like international world champions
Olav Stahl: of,
Sarah Marshall ND: and it's mostly boys, although there are some girls in there and what's interesting is it's a particular outlet that the reigning world champion for a long time was autistic, like quite autistic. And they did not expect and what this area of competition and friends and community and purpose that showed up in this kid's life and you know, where he went with it. And like, I mean, it was, it's one of the most beautiful documentaries I've ever seen. And I think
Olav Stahl: that, (inaudible) do you know, it?
I watched it (Sarah: you did?) on Netflix.
Yeah!
Netflix, isn't it? Yeah. (Sarah: yeah, yeah, yeah) It's amazing. It is amazing. Yeah. It's so beautiful. Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: God, that's awesome. Now, another area you had mentioned that you have worked with, if my memory serves me is actually people dealing with some sort of PTSD or they've had trauma in their life.
Olav Stahl: Yeah. So it basically, I mean, I'm living in Germany now, but I used to live in the UK for 10 years.
And since two years I'm back in Germany and in the UK, I was doing quite regularly. Yeah. Workshops for the NHS. Like events, where, people with all sorts of mental, physical, or psychological handicaps or disabilities would come
Sarah Marshall ND: and is NHS the National Health Service? Is that
Olav Stahl: right?
Yeah. Yeah, National Health Service, yeah. That's right.
And, but I was also working for a charity called Mind and, and I think mine in the UK is maybe the biggest charity that is about supporting people with mental problems. And, so I would just, I was basically just, going there once a week and, yeah playing table tennis with them. Yeah. And then, and there were people who had been attacked with a knife or people who had schizophrenia and would take medications.
There were all sorts of different people, but everybody had some kind of, of a mental health problem. You know, some people had extreme pain in their body and we're really like excruciating pain. And were suffering under that. And, and yeah. And then, and then, so I, I think I just started doing this. And there was a tall young man. I think his name was Abdul and, he came two times and, and really listen to everything I said and, and try these shots out. And he learned a lot and he had great, he developed techniques and great skills. And the next week I came back here. Oh, the next week I came back, he wasn't there anymore.
And then suddenly the, the, the center manager, of this Mind center, she says to me, "Olav, yeah. Abdul is not coming anymore. He actually got inspired and encouraged and he has the courage to apply for jobs. And now he got, he got a job and he's working."
Oh my gosh.
And look, tabled on as it's really it's, it's extremely complex. Why? The ball is extremely light. It weighs a few grams. It's like a feather. Yeah. You as a human being, you're extremely strong and powerful. Yeah? And then the bats you use, they're also quite bouncy. Yeah. So, and then if somebody is able to put, spin on the ball, then the, the ball might come to your bat and just bounce off, straight down, or straight up or straight to the side because of the spin. Yeah. So it's really, it's a complex game and, if you're able to improve in this complex game and learn new skills, it's... pretty much, I always tell people, wow, you developed within five minutes a forehand topspin, as good as professionals play forehand top spins. This means you can do anything unless you can become an astronaut. You can become a doctor. You can become a lawyer. Or you can become a chef or become a office worker, whatever you want. You can do anything because this, what you just did, it's complex complicated. It's not easy. You just proved that you are capable of anything. And basically that's how I encourage people who have had traumatic experiences in their life.
Yeah. I just, I would say I just. I'm really interested in them. I don't see myself as a therapist or, or I I'm just interested in this other human being and the person I take them serious. I have a lot of fun with them as if I know them since 10 years. I'm very straight and direct, which brings me into trouble.
They are. Once I at, at Mind, I once was coaching a woman and I said to her, Hey. You're you're very hesitant and you're like scared of hitting that ball and later, she told me that this was a bit too harsh for her. So I apologized ... but, but I just treat people. I don't treat them like patients, I'm gonna treat them like normal human beings. Because we all deal with emotional stuff and traumatic stuff and, there's basically not a big difference. Maybe there's a difference in the extent or in the, in the severity of trauma. But...
yeah,
Sarah Marshall ND: I look at one of the things that's missing in medicine and medicine's become very much this practice. At least my observation. I mean, I've never worked in a hospital. I have, you know, have a very different kind of clinical practice, but it's transactional. It's like, A person comes in, you assess their symptoms through an algorithm. You potentially bring in, you know, objective data from lab tests or imagery. You assess those data points. And then that should all calculate into a diagnosis, which has usually a one-to-one treatment. It's just this it's like it actually removes humanity from it. And (Olav: yeah, yeah) there's a certain precision and statistical reliability that comes with that.
My practice is the opposite. Like I have all that, but, a lot of what I do emulates, what you do you say, which is people come to me. And the first thing I do is I listen to them like they're the experts in their own
Olav Stahl: life (Olav: yep) that
Sarah Marshall ND: they know more about their body and their symptoms, then no matter what lab tests I do, no matter what imagery I may have, that they're the experts. And I listened to them that way. And it alters a lot. And I'm always like, I actually referenced them that they've hired me like a consultant to produce a result in their life.
Olav Stahl: Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: Versus
yeah
they've come to, to me. And as the doctor, I'm going to tell them what to do. It's this complete role reversal.
And I can hear that in the way that you interact with the people that you're training in table tennis is like, you're just training them in table, tennis, whatever they have going on in their backgrounds and the way that you relate to them and that ability to get connected to somebody to create that relationship like you've known each other for 10 years. Like I also. Do a lot with that with my clients who I call clients, not patients, because I've actually looked up the syntax of the conversation like the um, uh what do we
Olav Stahl: call it?
(Olav: the) epidemiology (Olav: etymology) .
Yeah, (Olav: etymology like where the word comes from? yeah)
Sarah Marshall ND: exactly. And like, like the, the word doctor actually means teacher, which we've pretty much lost that, but docere means to teach and that's where the root Latin word for doctor comes from. And then in that, that being the patient though, there's this implied hierarchial relationship, power dynamic. There's a whole bunch of things that are built into that language. So I actually referenced that there they're clients of mine that have hired me just like in any business and it's, and it's, and it shifts my responsibility and it shifts their responsibility.
And then the same thing about generating a relationship with them and that connection. And it's interesting. Cause I think this comes from places where you and I both have had some similar training and personal growth and development, but there were points along my journey where I got to realize my brain puts more energy and effort into thinking, I don't know this person.
I need time to get to know this person, then to actually get they're a human. I'm a human, they've got a heart. I've got a heart. Their feelings are my feelings. Like that there's a place where I can actually remove this, this illusionary veil between me and a perfect stranger. And people will say that to me. I get on an airplane.
You never want to sit next to me on an airplane. You're going to tell me your life story. (Sarah laughs) And it happens all the time. People are like, I don't even know why I'm telling you this.
Olav Stahl: I'm like well.... (both laugh)
Ahh because you're good in listening. (Sarah: yeah) And maybe because you're good in listening because you realize how little you listen when you catch yourself, when you don't listen. Yeah.
It's remarkable.
No, I really think what you just said is great. It's really the relationship you have. It's like the relationship is like the context of everything. It's the context of the whole interaction. It's the context of the whole healing process, it's the context of the whole learning experience. And, and that makes the difference. And at the same time, when this is there as a foundation, this great strong relationship, then it's I think it's perfectly fine to be really analytical and to really look, okay. You are you the last five times you have been hitting the ball with the edge? Well, what happened? What? Let's look together, what let's explore, what, what happened? What's going on? What's the source of that?
And then to go back to go back and find: okay, great. You're nervous. Ah, okay. Because you're nervous. You're not really looking at the ball. You're not seeing the ball. I mean, I always say um playing table tennis is a bit like having a lie detector because whatever is going on, I can see it at the other person.
If they are nervous, I can see it. If they are relaxed, I can see it, because if they're nervous. They won't be able to play good shots because when you're nervous, it's a bit like the deer in the headlights, your eyes are open, but you don't see anything. You just can't see the small minor details. Yeah. I was coaching once, he's one of the richest guys in the UK.
And also at the same time, one of the most generous guys, he gives 30% of all his earnings every year for charity. And, I met him at a Jewish wedding, a friend of mine. she, she was getting married and she said, Olav, I need a coach who brings a table tennis table and instead of dance with a bride, I want play ping pong with a bride, and I want you to be the table tennis coach.
So I got a van, I put a table tennis table in the van, went to the wedding, had 20 bats. And then I was doing him miss coaching. And I taught this man, a financial guru. I taught him and within five minutes, how to play a better backhand. And he said, Oh, I want to have this for my company. So he has the biggest, secondary, whatever finance company in the world.
and he, he... half a year later, I was going there the first time. And two weeks later we had signed up his company (Sarah: oh my gosh) to the table tennis league in London. So they were playing league matches and he also would sometimes play in the league. So, but he only had time to play with, I came every week, but he only had time maybe every six months he would come and play with me because he was so busy.
Yeah. So I played with him and he played rubbish, which is understandable because he never practices. I said, Jerry, don't give me this bullshit. You play nervous and you play anxious and you don't look at the ball. That's not who you are when you are in the business meeting and the board meeting. And you tell everybody what to do around all the world.
You're a different person. I want you to be that person that you normally are. Is that okay? And then he played the best, strongest (Sarah laughs: Yeah) he was hitting the ball, like wide and with confidence. Yeah. And so there is no difference between him and somebody who has been traumatized or somebody who is, has the down system (syndrom) or somebody who has a severe uh mental impairment so that they maybe struggle a lot with sports. No, everybody's dealing with their limitations and it's just about giving it up and then to see what's possible.
Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: This reminds me actually, of, a transformational experience for myself in sport involving volleyball. And I.
You know, the way I grew up. And however, I decided to be myself in the world, I was pretty good at certain things. Like there were things that I could just, you know, If I put my mind to it, I would be one of the best people. Like I excelled in math. I excelled in science. I was in like the 98 percentile of chemistry. I got awards in high school. I graduated high school when I was 16. There was a, there was a level of, but there were other areas. If I wasn't like great at it, like remarkable at it in the first five, 10 minutes. (Olav: yeah, yeah) Not doing it, but like not right. I then got this identity that I had to be the excellent right out of the gate like (Olav: yeah, yeah, yeah) the first time I tried anything. So Frisbee? Nope. Ha I remember hacky sack? Nope. That was out. Most team sports? Out. I was a downhill ski racer and I rock climbed and I kayaked in high school. I would do these individual sports where I didn't have to compare myself against somebody else, that made it easier to access it. Right? But team sports, forget about it. So. You know, and I grew up in atypical school system. I went to a Montessori school type structure in elementary schools. We were doing yoga classes when I was four, but I never really learned the rules and the mechanics of like softball and, a lot of the traditional American sports.
So when I got to junior high school in the public school and I wasn't good at them, I just didn't do any of them, so I had this huge conversation in my head about. Like if I even started to not be good at a sport when people were watching me. So anything involving a team, my anxiety and nervousness would go so high that it was like not ha-.
And all of this was peeling back. My perfectionism, like where I had this high standard of how I needed to be right. Laughing too. Cause we actually had, we had table tennis in our basement. We had a, Table. And I would play some, but not a lot for the same reason. Yeah. Cause it wasn't just great at it. (Olav laughs) Right? So fast forward. I'm not kidding. I think this was 2016, four years ago. I'm 36 years old. I'm an accomplished doctor. I have my own practice. I've published a cookbook, right? Like all this and a buddy of mine is like, Hey, there's a group of us going down to the park to play volleyball. And my whole, I wanted to throw up, my whole body was like,
Olav Stahl: Oh my God.
Sarah Marshall ND: And then truth be told I had a crush on this guy. So I was like, Oh my God. But if you want to hang out with them, you gotta go. Like, this has gotta be a thing. Right. You're just gonna have to get over yourself. And I had this story in my head, like, I'll just watch. I'm like, what am I 12, like the 12 year old girl, that's going to stand on the sidelines and watch the guy she.
But that was, was, yeah. So. I show up. I go, I say, I'm going to watch the first round. I make this whole story about how I'm not very good at sports. And like that dah, dah, dah, like the whole story comes out and then they're like, no, seriously, Sarah, like you have to come and play. And so I distinctly remember the moment of dropping the I can't.
Yeah. And then what's crazy is like, you know, also, cause I've had this in the podcast, you know, I have 10 plus years of, of training and development and ontology and transformational learning, which is all about discovering your ways of being that are stopping you in life and being able to uncover an inquiry where you've made a story up about yourself that's just a decision an upset kid made. That's not the truth of who you are. Right. And I remember standing in the grass in Washington park, in Denver, Colorado with this group of people. And I had a moment where I had to like, look and go, you have a story from being like 10, 12 years old, that you're still living inside of like, it's the truth.
And I dropped it and I actually got interested in the mechanics, like the analytical side. I got interested in how it works. And what happened was I, I was rubbish. Like I was not good. Right? And spiking the ball and serving the ball and everything. But I was no longer in my head about my story about myself.
I got interested in it. And what's crazy is like I was a very successful downhill ski racer. So I actually know how to get my body to do things. When somebody tells me, move this way, put your hand here. I know how to do that.
Olav Stahl: Yup. So,
Sarah Marshall ND: here I am giving up my story. And at the end of the day, they were like, dude, you're the most improved volleyball player we've ever seen because from the first game to the third game I played, like there was massive improvement happening, just simply cause I got out of my own way and this whole like longterm conversation and it, it blew my mind. Like it literally, like I went around sharing about that for a long time. Like how I just had a transformation of myself at the level of identity, like who I thought I was in the world playing a pickup game of volleyball in the park on a Saturday afternoon.
Like, so I feel like I can just only imagine, right? Like that was what it was like
Olav Stahl: for me.
That's amazing. About five years ago, I was doing, a workshop about leadership. It was called "A New Paradigm of Leadership" and it was led by professor Michael Jensen from Harvard and Werner Erhard. And Michael Jensen, he's a, he's a very famous economist who's considered to get the equivalent of the Nobel prize in economics very soon, because he's so he's so often quoted in, in social sciences. Anyhow, one thing we learned in that workshop was to one of the things, no, this workshop was, your actions as a human being are completely correlated to how the world shows up for you. So. If the world shows up for you as dangerous, then your actions are perfectly correlated. So then probably are careful. And or if the world, if something shows up for you as a great opportunity, then you, your action is that you do certain things. Anyhow. So what I want to say is if you have inner monologue.
Or if you show up for yourself that you are not good in certain things, not good in sports, then your actions will be perfectly correlated to that. And the best thing to make sure that you're not good in sports is to not be out there and look at the ball, the thing that you want to hit or throw, but to be in your head and, I can't do it or it's a little I'm rubbish.
And then you are doing all these micro actions that will make sure. That you will not be able to play that volleyball nicely or to hit the ping pong table, tennis ball nice. Or, or to throw the football nice, you are doing all these actions because they are perfect correlate to what you think about yourself or about life.
And so what, what, what, what that means if I think I'm a rubbish cook. But I stand at the kitchen and next to me is a three star Michelin chef who tells me exactly what the actions I should do to produce this sophisticated meal. I, as somebody who has no experience in cooking or thinks he's rubbish, will be able to produce an amazing meal because the actions I take, they are not given by what I think about myself and about cooking, but they are given from somebody who is a three star Michelin chef.
Yeah? And the actions that I take are a perfect correlation to how the world occurs for him. Yeah. So it's all about these actions and, I also always tell people that there is literally no difference between Roger Federer or Michael Jordan or any other top sports person and, and, and us, we all have the same brain. We all have the same amount of bones. More or less, and the same muscles. I might have a few more pounds on my body and I might weigh more. I might, my muscles might be a bit smaller, but otherwise our brain is the same and everything is pretty much the same. They have a different conversation about themselves and sports. And because they have this different internal conversation they performed. And as soon as they change this conversation, the internal conversation in that moment, they perform like rubbish. Now the best example, just three days or four days ago, I was watching Dominic Thiem. I think his name is Dominic Thiem. He's the US open tennis winner. He just won the us open a few weeks ago and he played now at the French open tennis and, and he's a specialist for the French open because he loves to play on the sand on the clay court. He played against a young French man who is maybe number 200 in the world. Dominic Thiem is probably number in the top five and he struggled so much.
Whenever the young French men would play a stock. So short ball behind the net, Dominic team would run, try to play the ball with his forehands and he would play the ball always buy one or two meters out. That's a lot in tennis. So yeah. And again, playing tennis is also like having a lie detector with you.
You could, every time that he's, so... his conversation about the shots and about his performance was really very bad. He didn't have any feeling any control because he did have this kind of conversation about this shot. He played about 10, I think it was 10 shots. Within half an hour and all of them went one or two meters out.
He didn't play a single of these balls in the court. And that is so strange for somebody of his caliber, but it shows we all deal with the same stuff. (Sarah: yeah) We all can get nervous. And when we get nervous, it changes the conversation we have about what we're dealing with. And then our performance goes down (Sarah: yeah) as simple as that.
Sarah Marshall ND: And it, it gets to so many things where. You know, in, in sports today, especially really high end professional sports, they've actually found like so much of the game now is men because these athletes all are like physically at the same level of fitness, the equipment is like micro little tiny differences, but I mean, (Olav yep yep) it's, it's really calmed down too.
The physical reality playing field is pretty much level. So the difference between winning and losing is that mental clarity or mental attitude or the conversation they have about them. Like that's, that's become so much more and this is well documented. And they many, many, many, many, many sports teams, if not all, perfectly have psychologists and there's all this other work that's getting done.
It's, to me, cause I'm always fascinated by the brain and how our brain and our mind, which I actually distinguished between the two, give us our life and what we choose to do, what we think is possible. What we don't think is possible, how we can actually alter that. Cause as a physician, I know often know the action somebody needs to take to have their body restored to health and to put it really out there.
I even know the actions I need to take for my body to be. And I'm right now, currently I'm up against some undistinguished conversation. I haven't gotten to the root of it yet. That has got me taking actions that are a detriment to what I need to be doing to take care of chronic fatigue syndrome that I'm dealing with, that I've shared about in other podcasts. (Olav: yeah) And I'm watching myself, I know the diet, I know, make likely even a 10% difference. And my brain's already talking me out of it. It's like, yeah. But 10%, there's something else operating. I know that much. And I'm, I'm going to be at work at figuring out and distinguishing that conversation so that I can get myself freed up here.
But it's like in sport, there's that place, but we can reverse engineer it where it's not just about sport. It's our whole life. Like (Olav: it is, yeah) we all operate inside of these conversations and constructs that make it seem like we'll know that it's just the way it is or that's just who I am. And one of the advantages of something like skiing or swimming or table tennis or something where it is physical.
And we don't apply a lot of meaning to ourselves is it allows us to bump up against those conversations in a new way and see them about ourselves. But then it applies to our schooling, our academics, our careers, our relationships, like you can reverse engineer it out of the sport.
Yup.
Olav Stahl: Yep. Absolutely. I'm I'm I'm when, when I was looking, to, to, to be on this podcast with you, I was thinking about, Hmm.
What allows me to, to contribute to people? Why do people have great results when I've worked with them? Yeah, honestly, I, I think, I honestly think that with in five minutes with a, with a severe traumatized person, I can, I can. I can give that person, or help that person to transform more than psychologists probably can do in five years.
So, so I was looking, what, what is it, what allows me to make this difference? And, it's of course it's the great relationship I'm able to create in the moment with people. I don't, I don't make time for that. I just crack a joke. and, and I found with them and I, I just played table tennis with them. Yeah. But, but, The other thing. I, I don't have to pretend to be a certain way when I'm with them. They're pretty much similar to what you said earlier.
So I go to the session with five people who are dealing with mental health issues or seven people. And I say, Hey, great to see you. Today I'm afraid that I won't do a good job. Yeah. That's present for me. I'm worried that I, because I'm, because I haven't been doing certain, certain, certain, Paperwork and tax work. I procrastinated my taxes, so I'm a bit depressed and I'm unhappy. So I just bring it out. I don't pretend that everything is fine in my life. I just say what's there. instead of pretending that everything is fine. Yeah. And then they, they listen and they, they think maybe, Oh, it's a bit strange that the person was a bit like a therapist or that, that he's like saying these kinds of things that he feels depressed.
But that's how it is. I do have a Fred Gallo Gallo. He's a very famous psychologist. he, he does like energy psychology. Have you heard about him?
Sarah Marshall ND: No, I think I know the name, but I don't know much of his work.
Olav Stahl: Yeah. I think like, have you heard of tapping like EFT?
Sarah Marshall ND: Yes.
Olav Stahl: Yeah. So I think Fred is doing something in that area. Maybe not tapping, but something in that area. And he's like, yeah, pretty famous. I met him once I was translating, Congress of psychologists. Maybe 15 years ago in Germany and he was one of the psychologists. And, and after I heard him speak, I went to him and I said, Hey, Fred, the way I speak, have you, have you done the Landmark Forum?
And that's the workshop either 24 years ago. And he said, no, no, no, but I did the S training. The S Training was what was before the landmark forum. He said I did the S Training. Oh my God. It was so amazing. I was just, I just started with it to be a psychologist and, and I, I really thought I had to be a certain way.
It was like, Oh, I thought I have to be a certain way as a psychologist. And when I did the S training, I realized, no, I can, I can be whoever I want. I can be whoever I want. However, I want. It freed me so up. Yeah. Yeah. That's I think it's like just being honest, being open sharing, really going on. and, and, and.
And not, not having this different level of that. Okay. I'm the health professional or the teacher and you are somebody to learn? No, we are all learning. And, interestingly, when, when I tried it to learn while I teach people, it's way more fun for me. And, and they really learn way more than when I. I think that I figured it out.
And that, that I know anything about table tennis tables are so complex. I know nothing from what there is to know, basically.
Yeah,
Sarah Marshall ND: yeah, absolutely. I've definitely could say that I've echoed that in my practice. And it's one of my favorite things about what I get to do for a living is like every new person that comes into my practice, I get to be in a new inquiry of like, what is going on here for them and what are all the factors? And like I'm right there at the beginning with them investigating and inquiring and learning and figuring things out together. And we do, I do a lot of that same kind of analytical work of like for you, you're looking at like, okay, they keep hitting the edge of the bat or they keep having a particular quote unquote error in the way that their body's moving.
Olav Stahl: And
Sarah Marshall ND: while I have this context of healing about being your true self and living your purpose and, and coming from love. There there's the actions that access how to take care of the body. Just point blank there, specific actions. And so one of the things that I do with almost all my new clients for sometimes three or four months, they will text me something daily.
And one of the things I first have them do is text me a photograph of every single thing that they eat or drink before they eat or drink it. And so they it's like a photographic diet journal. People's eyes light up when I first say this and I'm like, no, for the next 14 days, you're going to text me a photograph of everything that you eat or drink before you do.
And. I, the first thing I have to say is this isn't, I'm not grading you. This isn't actually about you doing anything right or wrong. It's literally observation. It's both for me and you, and actually more for them than it is for me to pay attention to something. So it's a way for them to watch their actions, to actually pay attention to something very objectively.
And then at the end of the 14 days, mostly I just asked them, what did they see? What did they get out of it? It's not really that relevant for me. I mean, it does help because you can have 20 people who say they had a Turkey salad and it's 20 completely different versions of that. So you don't really ever know what's going on for somebody in their diet except this way.
But then I go into other things like I have them measure their sleep. I have the measure, their water, I have the measure, something about their exercise routine or, or whatever. And, and we just keep working from that place of objectivity that allows them to, they get to look into their actions and see what's happening and discover things for themselves and like worlds open up from that.
And then there's also this context of, I don't have the answers. We're going to discover them together. And
Olav Stahl: that
Sarah Marshall ND: again, alters the relationship. It alters and makes it possible for me to see things that maybe I wouldn't have seen, because I would have had been busy having an opinion. So like I happen to be particularly skilled with diagnostics, helping people get to a diagnosis that nobody else saw.
And it's a hundred percent grounded in the fact that I start from I don't know. If I started from I know, I would have my blinders on.
Olav Stahl: Yeah. But
Sarah Marshall ND: because I started from, I don't know either, we explore and explore and explore it, explore, explore. And then I often have had people that have been through very brilliant medical systems, Mayo clinic, Cedar Sinai, like other other systems that have done great work.
But I stood more in the willingness to say, I don't know. And that opened up other ways of seeing things.
Olav Stahl: Yeah. No, that's great. It's so great. It's like you, you can be like a scientist and just explore. And if you can be too, you can be two scientists, you and your clients, you are two scientists and you're trying to get knowledge.
You're trying to gain knowledge and, and enjoy the process.
Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: Absolutely. Oh my gosh, this is in such a great conversation. We've been all all around this universe. It's awesome. And I, I'm so grateful to know you and to have you contribute to our
Olav Stahl: listeners.
Oh, that's so nice. Thank you. Yeah. I just remember one more thing.
It's interesting. A person who was participating it's like it's really a miracle. What happened in that interaction. He was participating in the BBC documentary, "How to Stay Young" he was maybe 75 years old. I forgot his name, but he was, as I found out at the very end, he was a GP, a general practitioner.
Oh, you worked with a doctor in the UK and he looked really fit and, and he was, well, he was, has had a great functioning mind, but when we played table tennis from the 11 people, he was at the bottom three. He, he really, he moved very, very slow. Yeah. He moved very slow. I mean, we, we, I was. 10 weeks training him like twice a week, like the rest too.
And after three weeks I said to him, Hey, you move so slow. What's the deal what's going on? you can tell me anything. Is there something? And then he said, Olav, I'm gay. And, my family, she is completely against it and my whole life I'm in this struggle with my family, for, for being gay. And I said, Oh my God, that's so courageous and so nice that you share this with me.
And we hardly know each other. I'm just a table tennis coach. That's so nice. That's so courageous and I get how frustrating this is for you. And I can really see, I can really see how that also impacts your table tennis. (laughs) So I said, great. I said, I want you to do the following when the ball comes to you. I want you to hit the ball as hard as you can so that it doesn't fly on the table.
It flies 20 meters further at the wall over there. And I will say one, when I hit the ball, two when the ball is at the net and hit, when you should hit the balls, we will both say, one, two, hit, but you have to hit it as hard as you can. Don't hit it on the table. He said, okay. So then the next five minutes.
We were both screaming, one, two hit and he was hitting with all his power and force. And after this five minutes interaction, okay. It was five minutes talking and five minutes of hitting the ball, like crazy. And, this man he transformed, he was newly born after these few minutes. Immediately after that, he suddenly moved faster. He was more confident. He wasn't moving like a sleeping pill anymore. He just moved like a normal human being. Yeah, he became just after this 10 minutes, he was certainly one of the top four players.
And at the end of this 10 weeks documentary, he shared that he was dealing his whole life, with depression and that's the table tennis workshops supported him to overcome this. And I knew that it actually wasn't the whole work. It was this 10 minute long interaction who helped him to get out of this being frozen and being so slow and afraid to be courageous and aggressive and bold and wild. and, and I mean, I was surprised to hear with at the end, from him that he was dealing his whole life with depression. I mean, I, I, yeah, for table tennis is like a great tool because it shows me exactly what's going on with people under pressure or, people deal with, Oh, I don't want to look bad in front of others. People deal with, Oh, I'm not good enough. People deal with it with all the stuff they deal with in everyday normal life too. and then I just point these things out to people and usually always also draw a connection to the real life and, so when they then transform something in table tennis, because I have shown the connection and they understand that there is a connection with real life.
They can also just overcome the looking bad and for being frozen, they can also overcome it and relax.
Sarah Marshall ND: That's fantastic. I love
Olav Stahl: it.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yay. Transformational table tennis.
Olav Stahl: Do you know the, this show, I think it's called "True Blood." It's a vampire.
Sarah Marshall ND: I haven't actually watched it, but I know of it.
Olav Stahl: Yes.
Yeah. it's quite interesting that the True Blood cast, they came to this table tennis nightclub in London. Because I think the two main actors, they are actually married in real life and they live in London or they are originally from London.
So they came to the (inaudible) night nightclub, and I was organizing a table, a birthday party for them. And that's the other fun part, apart from these "True Blood" actors, I was doing a lot of table tennis work with a lot of, English, Yeah, soap opera actors. There's a very famous soap opera called "Coronation Street" maybe it's like one of the longest running soap operas in the world. And I basically was the official table tennis of coach of "Coronation Street" of "Holly Oaks," which is also a famous soap opera and of Emmer-, "Emmerdale." And once a year, they would fly me to Scotland. The ITB managers, and Nikki and John, you know, Nikki Lister and her husband, John, and they would fly me, but I think John, his last name isn't Lister, but anyhow, they would fly me to, to Scotland, the, soap, opera actors and their families would come to the small Scottish village.
And then my job was to coach all the Scottish village people they're like normal, normal, normal guys.
Yeah.
And the actors and their families to coach them in table tennis and then run, run a table tennis junior tournament for the, all the, youth. Yeah, that was also quite, quite exciting. Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: Lots of adventures in this
Olav Stahl: for you. That's awesome. Oh my
Sarah Marshall ND: gosh. Well, Olav, I just appreciate you so much and all of your passion for this and sharing and, and the there's a precision to what you do. And it, I think it's going to offer people a lot of things to think about for themselves and also, you know, coaches out there and teachers and trainers in ways to start to look at how we, how we do what we do and the importance of it that it's, you know, it runs deep. There's, there's a lot that can be gleaned from it. It's really
Olav Stahl: awesome.
Right.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Olav Stahl: Thank you so much, Sarah. It was a pleasure and honor, and a joy. And, I mean, yeah, keep, keep, keep, doing this great work. It's, it's really inspiring to, to hear, you and all of the people you're interviewing, because it's really, it's, it's cutting edge, it's cutting edge medicine and healing that you, you bring to the public. It's it's amazing. It's very inspiring.
Sarah Marshall ND: Thank you. Yeah, I, this is, this has been a giant "I don't know." Every, every episode, every time I keep pushing myself into the, I don't know. And where else can we go next and what can be discovered? And I think that's been the beauty of it is I, I didn't know where we would end up and, and it continues to evolve and grow. And as long as I. I keep coming from that. Where do we want to go next? Where can we push the boundary? What's another thing I didn't know about like transformational table tennis? You know, is that's been creating this space and it's pushing me just as much.
So it's been pretty, pretty remarkable. So thanks for your contribution to it. And it's going to be awesome.
All right, my dear. Well, until we do this again, thank you so much. This is just been a total pleasure.
Olav Stahl: Thanks a lot, Sarah, take care and all the best.
Sarah Marshall ND: Thank you to today's guest Olav Stahl for his joy and generosity. If HEAL has been making a difference for you, we would greatly appreciate it if you left us a review of your favorite platform, so we can reach out to more people and help heal our world. For a full transcript and all the resources for today's show, visit SarahMarshallND.com/podcast. Keep the conversation going, have ideas or a healing story to share? Send us your thoughts, wants for future episodes, or questions by contacting us at SarahMarshallND.com or on Instagram @SarahMarshallND. Thanks as always to our music composer, Roddy Nikpour, and our editor, Kendra Vicken. We'll see you next time.