Healing An Iatrogenic disease, Topical Steroid Withdrawal: A Hero's Journey with Molly Evans,PhD

On today's episode, we will talk with educator Molly Evans, who shares her hero's  journey of healing from 34 years of topical steroid use and what it is to live free of pharmaceuticals.

Referenced in the show:

“The Hero's Journey: Joseph Campbell on His Life and Work (The Collected Works of Joseph Campbell)”

Molly Evan’s Biography

Going from Expectations to Inspiration and Aspirations, Molly Evans, Ed.D loves nothing more than to share her story of career, health, healing, and beyond to help others on their ultimate quest to find life's greatest purpose and peace.  After obtaining three college degrees and serving eighteen years as a public school administrator, Molly found herself in the midst of a health upheaval and took a deep dive into the depths of discovery and recovery from Topical Steroid Withdrawal Syndrome (TSWS).  Through this hard part of life, Molly discovered parts of the world and mostly of herself that opened her eyes to another way of living. Her favorite places to be are near the ocean, on long walks in the woods near her home in Indiana, reading a plethora of books, daily yoga, dreaming of writing her own book, or simply being with her three kids, Goldendoodle, and husband of 23 years.  She serves on the Board of Directors for the nonprofit ITSAN (International Topical Steroid Awareness Network), bringing greater awareness to the adverse side effects of topical steroids used commonly to treat skin conditions such as eczema.  Molly's greatest hope is that curiosity and oneness will unite to unbox old ways of doing things and instead connect people and nature with the sweet intention of harmony and healing for all.

Full Transcript

Sarah Marshall, ND: Welcome to heal the podcast. Season one, launching the project. On today's episode, we will talk with educator Molly Evans, who shares her hero's  journey of healing from 34 years of topical steroid use and what it is to live free of pharmaceuticals. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Marshall.

All right. We're live. We're recording. This is happening. All  right, good. So Molly, you and I have known each other for six years. Is that right? Five. Five or six years,

Molly Evans: I think five and a half years. That should be almost exact. Yes. In March.

Sarah Marshall, ND: And  you know, I just thank you so much for being willing to come and share your journey and your story. And so the premise here is at the healing project is to have people share their stories of healing. What does healing mean to you? Where did things happen? You never expected what were the challenges, and then also the joys and the things that you've gotten out of this process. And it really is your words, the way you want to create it and your story.

And,  I'm just so excited to get to share this with more people and have it make a difference for them too.

So thanks for being here.

Molly Evans: Yeah. Heck yeah.

Sarah Marshall, ND: So you want to just like, tell your story?

Molly Evans: Yeah, I can just tell my story. Well, it's funny when you, when you were kind of explaining what the premise of the objective of the healing project is, you said what, what has healing done for you?

Or what'd you say? What is healing? And it's funny cause I never thought about healing until I needed to heal. And so for me, healing has taken on a six year journey, because that's when I got sick before, before I had this life altering illness land upon me. Literally like it, it's like, I think of it like a space alien.

You know, a spaceship that flew into my life that I had no idea whether I was healing, whether I was sick, whether I was well, whether I was thriving, I was living, I was just living, I was just existing doing all the things. And my, my life was good. So when I was super interrupted, with the idea of topical steroid withdrawals and starting what I had no idea was going to be, such a thorough and long, I believe now lifelong, healing process healing has, the definition of healing has, has changed and transitioned probably month to month in the last six years. I just now feel like I'm getting up some overarching ideas and beliefs and truths about healing, but initially healing for me was physical comfort.

Hmm. Physical symptoms. And really it was a lot of denial. It was like healing meant I could do my life and not have to think about healing. That was my initial...

Sarah Marshall, ND: Right. So what do you see about it now?

Molly Evans: Well, now six years into, you know, my withdrawal from steroids and my entrance, like I feel like I came out of the illness and into being, whatever you want to call it? "Woke," "aware," all of the, you know, all of these things that I didn't know those parts were coming. I had no idea. So now what do I think healing is now? I think healing is multifaceted. It's mental, it's emotional, it's relational, it's physical. It is so many things. It's nature. It's your connections.

It's like, it's become such a big part of life because I, I now see the potential and the possibility for everything too... Not heal in the way that like we have to put effort in, but like in the way that we can pay attention, notice, do our best, nurture and care for. So it's become a much softer definition.

And at the same time, it's become. I, I, I've become intentional in every part.

It's almost

Sarah Marshall, ND: like it's expanded at the same time where there's, that softening, cause now like, I mean with what you've shared with me, it's, it's across your whole life. There's no component of your life that doesn't end up under that umbrella.

Molly Evans: Yeah. It's the healing process. One for me from the very beginning, I had the mindset of I'm stepping into this illness because I didn't truly have to step into topical stared withdrawals. I could have...

Sarah Marshall, ND: Would you just talk a little bit about like what that really is? Cause I don't  think, I mean...

Molly Evans: Yes!

Sarah Marshall, ND: I was a physician. We never learned it in my pathology courses. And when you first full disclosure, you first showed up [00:05:00] and you're like, have you worked with people like this? I'm like, like you yes, with this? No, but that's not how I put it at the time. And I had to go research it and find out like...And most many MDs have never heard of it, don't know anything about it.

Molly Evans: No, no. So I had, I was diagnosed with eczema when I was two years old and basically was put on steroids. I remember the day that hydrocortisone 1% became an over the counter lotion because my parents, it was like, it might as well been Christmas, like they were so excited. So.

Topical steroids became my treatment plan from the age of two to the age of 37. Wow. And, that was, you know, that was the one and only treatment that I had. So one day while I'm sitting at work at, you know, a position that I have worked very hard for, 18 years for. I have a colleague walk in and he says, Hey, I know you're always putting something on, some lotion on, have you heard of topical steroid withdrawals?

Are those steroids that you're using? And I was like, yeah, heck yeah. And I proudly grabbed the tube out of my purse and I'm like, this stuff is magic. Like, and he said, have you heard of withdrawals that the reason you have to keep using that is because your skin is actually addicted to the steroid and now you have steroid induced eczema and you don't just have eczema anymore.

So. It was like, it was the saddest light bulb, but the brightest one I've ever seen in my whole life. Like it was like, that's what this is, because my symptoms had started to change where my skin would feel like rubberized, where I was applying the steroids, you know, things were, things were shifting.

I wasn't getting the same results that I used to with this magic cream. So yeah. I went home, I read about it for three nights, and then I decided, yes, this is what I have. I, I need to go through topical steroid withdrawals. I have to stop using the steroids. And that weekend I started and within two days, my body, my entire body was, fully in the worst.

Eczema. What I would have normally thought was eczema flare I had ever experienced at that time. So I thought, okay, this process is working. I just need to withdrawal from steroids and get these out of my system. I had read whatever very limited information was out there, and so I had read that it would take 12 months, so I went all in.

I was like. You know, I am, I am that warrior spirit of give me the thing I will conquer. And so that's how I went into this idea of healing, really had no clue what I actually was taking on, but never once did I ever touch the steroids again. And I'm so proud to say that because I felt like I had this conviction and knowing like, this is what I have to do and therefore I will, I will do it.

I think it was five months in when I finally, heard of you, was referred to you?

Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah, that's about six months. Yep.

Molly Evans: Yes. And when you walked in the door, which, you know, we've only been actually in person with each other a few times, throughout the six years, which is so funny. Like it, cause it doesn't really matter.

But, the first time you walked in, I was so nervous thinking, what is she gonna... Like, she's probably going to be scared of me because I was, you know, physically I was very shocking to so many people with red skin, oozing skin. You know,

Sarah Marshall, ND: It was flaking, it was dry all over. I remember your arms were like...

Molly Evans: Yeah, it was dramatic. It was extremely dramatic. So, but I was still very much at that stage, just completely physical and also of the mindset that this would be gone in 12 months, which, we started working together and it wasn't gone in six months. Things got much worse. Things got better. There was really, there's not really a linear healing process with topical steroid withdrawal, so,

Sarah Marshall, ND: No,

Molly Evans: That was the, that's the original diagnosis, but the transformation beyond that initial meeting and the learning that took place. I remember you started me with food, nutrition and I had never heard of anything like that, thought you were ridiculous that I couldn't have a chocolate long john, iced chai latte for breakfast, and then move on to a box of hot tamale candy for lunch. Like I was like, how is that not helping?

Sarah Marshall, ND: Didn't you wasn't the students that or the teachers used to give you like a giant box of hot tamales because you ate so many,

Molly Evans: I mean, a pound a day. Yes. The one pound boxes. I would like the big giant, you know, movie size boxes. There would be like, I would just walk into my office every day, and when I was a principal, my students loved it because I just dumped them out on my desk.

And so when they come in and say, Hey, I'm in trouble. I'm like, why don't you eat a hot tamale? Burn it off a little, you know? So, so yeah. So healing began with very. Physical things, that now I look back on it, I'm like, I didn't realize pizza wasn't actually like a great way to get vegetables. What do you mean?

Sarah Marshall, ND: What? Really? But look at all the vegetables on there. There's tomato sauce? I put peppers on there. Yeah, totally.

Molly Evans: Yeah, so,

Sarah Marshall, ND: Got it. Well, thanks for telling us that background of, you know, cause I mean, [00:10:00] it's, and for me, as a physician and in a healer, which I also, you know, as part of the other thing that I want to start to pull into our conversations is I think that it's kind of like....Heal is a four letter word in the medical community in that, you know, it's all about science and answers and statistics and research and that component of what does it take to heal. That's why I'm doing this is I want to, I want to put a microphone on that and I want to have it be a louder conversation out there, but also part of that is, is the...Being a healer is also like not good credibility, you know, in, in the medical community. And so for me to claim that and say, yeah, that's also part of what I do. And I'm a doctor and I have this, you know, background in my education, but then there's this other part of me that's a human being and as a spiritual being and where I stand for and work with all of my people and, you know, get to, actually, I actually don't really have it that I do any of the healing.

Although I do think relationship is healing. And I think that the connection we built over those years there, you know, you've shared, there were times where that was a really important part of keeping you going.

So I do think that's really valid. But you did the healing, you know, your body did the healing, it was in your life, and I was standing for that as a possibility.

And in, you know, topical steroid withdrawal, that's one component. But I've had many people I've worked with where. You know, I will always say that pharmaceuticals have their place and there's a lot of really good things that come from them. But there's a downside, like the analogy I've used is that, you know, using a pharmaceutical drug without being responsible for what it's doing for your body, anything it's depleting or how it's impacting you, what it suppressing, is like putting a vacation every year on a credit card, but never paying more than the minimums, and then next year you go on another vacation, you put another vacation on the credit card, and you just keep paying your minimums. Everybody knows eventually that's not going to go well for your finances.

We do that with pharmaceuticals, not knowing there's this interest that's accumulating that eventually will either cause another disease or other symptoms or what we call side effects, which are actually the body's attempt to deal with the drug in the first place and either detoxify it or whatever it's trying to do.

And so I've had lots of clients that have been on pharmaceutical drugs where the drug itself started to eventually become in the, in the way it was an obstacle itself to their process and their healing.

Molly Evans: Yeah. And I think, you know, when you say, I did the healing, what you guided me to in that healing. was, you know, cause the, the part that, that we're not used to believing is, is that healing takes time. You know, pharmaceuticals are easy. Yes, those side effects come, clearly I'm a product of what happens after 34 years of topical steroid use. But, but it's, you don't ha-, you know, to me it's like, that's not called healing because healing requires personal investment, commitment. It requires efforts. And. What it also requires, I have found is it, it requires the idea and the acceptance that healing takes time and that results do not mean no more symptoms. Results, results come in all different ways. I mean, you know, it's kind of like that, that idea of the, I don't know many people who have gone through topical steroid withdrawals and you know, I'm very involved with that community still.

And it's interesting. It's one of the most painful, horrible things to experience. And at the same time, so many of us come through it. To the certain degree, we get to a certain place in our healing journey, and we say, I am not who I used to be. Yeah. I, and, and that's, that's healing because for a long time, and I don't remember exactly with you, but I know that, you know, sometimes we would have calls and you'd say, you know, like, there's one thing you do, you sit quiet.

And sometimes, you know when we're talking because the healing is, is not you saying, okay, take vitamin C and do this, and we're just not doing prescriptions. We're just replacing it with supplements. It's not like, here's your different concoction. It's like, here's the connection that you're talking about and the conversation, because healing requires that.

Vulnerability and that that truth to come out, I feel like it's got to come. It's like it's got to come from your feet all the way up through every organ and part of your body to come out. And so the results look different, but when my marriage is better because I'm healing, that's not exactly, that doesn't mean my skin looks perfect today.

Yeah. When my relationship with my children is so much more open and fun and enjoyable, it's not because my [00:15:00] skin looks perfect today. You know? 

Sarah Marshall, ND: But those were outcomes that came from that healing journey,

Molly Evans: YES! And I didn't, I didn't know those parts were even a little bit sick. Because with the pharmaceuticals before I stepped into to withdrawing from steroids. I could, I could suppress. I never, I wasn't healing. I was just like, Hey doc, what's the problem? Put something on it. Make it go away. Cause I gotta get back. I gotta get back on the, you know, the running escalator of life because I could take all my parts of life and compartmentalize them.

I never really had to like sit with them and think about, Hmm, this is, this is my body. How am I physically feeding it? These are my children. How much time and quality do I actually give them? so, you know, I think it's funny when you say, you know, you and I would just sit and and do these calls and connect, but there were times when I was very angry with you and you know, there's were times when I just yelled at you and I think you have the transcripts to prove it. You know, you made me very upset sometimes, and that's, that's healing. You have to look inside the parts of your story and your, your experience and wonder why things are coming up.

Why are emotions surfacing? And so that's, that's what I think a doctor is supposed to, is, is responsible for, if, if their intention truly is to help you heal.

Sarah Marshall, ND: Right? Yeah. So would you be willing to share some of those tough spots? Like what were some of the hardest things you had to go through and confront in this process?

Molly Evans: Yeah, I was, you know, I think probably the biggest thing I had to get over was myself. I was a, very successful career woman on a mission. I'm a visionary by nature and so I could see my life all the way through to retirement. Like I had this down and I was, I was clicking off the ladder steps very efficiently.

and I was very satisfied with the way all of that was going. So. The, one of the most, difficult parts for me was there was, there was Molly, who was this career woman walking and it was like, it was like my, my being was split in two and my actual existence was split into, there was Molly who was career women with a vision and a path.

And then there was Molly who was sick and was going through steroid withdrawals, and I somehow functioned. Both roles without letting them intersect. So I would go into work with a mask over my face that was completely cracked, peeling off, completely unsightful. I would walk into meetings and. I, it was this mental, like, I'm going to show up and do my thing and I need you all to just show up too, because if you have a problem, it's your problem, not mine.

And so there was like this resistance and this strength, I thought that I was bringing forth because I was going to deny this disease until it went away. And so it was finally one day at work, it caught up. The two Mollys could not coexist any longer. And I was sitting in my office and it was funny, I was actually trying to type an email to, pursue a consulting experience in Nevada with this consultant. I was trying to send an email. And I couldn't get it to work and my mind was really fuzzy and you know, I had other things going on. I had just come from a meeting with all of my principals and my entire admin team, and you know, I was, I was doing all the things.

And meanwhile, if you could see me, I had tubs of, of moisturizer, I had a humidifier under my desk. I had ice packs all over my body. So I mean, to walk in, you would think. What is going on. This woman is insane. How? How is she doing this? And I'm trying to type and exist holding an ice pack on my face, putting globs of moisture on my skin, getting my mask over my face again, humidifier going, and my assistant walked in and she's like, are you okay?

And I was like, no, can not get this fricking email to go. And she's like, well, and she laughed. She was like, you're sending it to yourself. And I'm like, what are you talking about? My mind got fuzzier and fuzzier. I'm pretty soon the wall started to spin and the result of all of this, and I think I had maybe been like in a year two, I really lost track of time where it was, but I literally fell out of my chair. Oh my goodness. My colleagues had to come in, help me get up and walk me out. And they're like, what is going on with you? I was super angry. Got to the hospital. It was the moment, the hardest moment of the entire experience because it was like finally, and thankfully, the, the [00:20:00] Molly who needed help was just removed from the, the, from the possibility of denying.

And so that was, that was the wake up call. And I think when healing shifted to: you're not going, this isn't going away until you really fully commit to doing the work. Because I still had the mindset that you could just give me a few supplements and I could pop them in my mouth and get to work, and I just wanted it to look, I want to look in the mirror and have it be gone. Yeah. Because I didn't know what healing was. I knew that.

Sarah Marshall, ND: And you brought that same drive to the treatment plans, like you were one of the like. I mean, I gave you a diet plan. You didn't like it. You  do it to a tee. You change everything. You took the supplements and the regimen.

I mean, it was just like, and that was, I remember our conversation, and I can't say when it was, where you were literally at your wit's end and you're like, what else can I do?  Like I'm doing, I have the diet, I have the supplements, I'm doing the baths. I wake up at night. I have the humidifiers.  Like it was like you had gotten, and, and you and I have talked about this before, but as, as one of my big, metaphors I use is from Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey and how the breaking point for people, and this is where I would say we leave the traditional world of just using supplements, diets, drugs, pharmaceuticals, therapies, to just make the symptoms go away, right? There's a breaking point that I would even say that it's not that that stuff isn't useful cause I use it all the time and I started, I start all my clients there. They got to deal with that physical stuff first. But there is a breaking point that I would say that's something else. And then the healing actually begins when you get to the end of everything that's predictable and everything that's known and familiar and you reach this point that for some people is like the bottom of the barrel where you realize that's not going to be enough, or there's something else going on. And then if you look at the hero's journey cycle, there's this like line that says, above ground is the known world and below ground is the unknown world or going into the underworld. And I feel like that was the moment where you crossed the threshold and you were now out into the unknown. And that one of my premises of, of a component of what does it take to heal, healing really begins when we cross that line, when we go out into the unknown world and in our lives. And then there were all kinds of unknowns for you in your marriage with your children, with your career path. Like, like that's where we start questioning everything.

And, and. In some senses. That was like, that's when the real healing begins. You know? And you've done supplements and you've had dietary components. Cause we do have to take care of this vessel. We have to like keep that, you know, for sure. Whatever degree.

So then on the other side of the conversation is, I mean maybe there's something there you want to share about like what it was like for your family or for your husband and through this process.

Molly Evans: Yeah. Well, I mean that's, that's a huge. Part of it because once you cross that threshold, which I didn't actually know about the hero's journey until you told me about it last January, so pretty recently a year, you know, I didn't know about the hero's journey, but when I read it, I'm like, "Oh! That was me! I did that!" I remember I used to put my pajama pants on in my Crocs with my soft clothing and go walk out across the threshold into the desert by myself while my whole world went the other direction and went on. And I literally would just talk to saguaros, the mountains. It's a weird place, somewhere between insanity and a warrior.

Sarah Marshall, ND: Totally, insanity and brilliance, meet out in the desert.

Molly Evans: But you're a hundred percent right, that that's where the, that's where the real healing starts to take place. And it's very, it's a very, it's lonely. Not because people aren't around and, and curious, you know, friends would still come and family would still ask like, how are you, how are you doing?

But you come to a place where you no longer answer the questions based on your symptoms. So I would no longer say. I'm good. I think, you know, I think my arms are better now, or I think my hands are, are clear. I feel like it's, you know, I slept better last night. It's kind of like, I believe I've always had a nature of like, I believe in the ideal and like stuff that's kind of out there, and maybe you call it magical, but it was, it was a strange place, even for my natural mindset, because I was like, it's a little different out here, so I didn't know how to answer the question anymore. How are you? I mean, literally you're like, I don't know. I don't know what to say to that because it started to unfold. All the, like my vision that I had 20 years down the road was [00:25:00] literally rewinding back, back, and not even to present time, but behind that, because then it was like all those 18 years that happened also, this came along with it and I was like, Whoa, Whoa, wait a minute.

My, my son, you know, has like anger issues that I don't know what's going on with him. I'm an expert educator. How could that be? You know, my husband and I are like butting heads on two different paths because he wants to live life like it was, I can't live life like it was now. I don't even want to, cause now I see like what wasn't right with life like it was. Like all of these things start to open up. My parents are like, what do you mean you're not working? You know? You're like, you've done all this work. Don't not finish. You have to be so you're, you're letting. You're, you're letting other people down. You're letting yourself down.

While you're also gaining knowledge, you're like, wait, but that wasn't right, but I, but I pursued it with every ounce of my being because I didn't, I didn't know. And it wasn't even that everything, something wasn't right. It was the way that I was arranging and fixing my life to make those things remain steady.

As they started to fall away and slip away. I no longer had a nanny. You know? I remember going to work and the nanny sitting at the counter with my son and my girls who are teenagers are talking to the nanny as I'm like, see, you guys see, be home at six. Like I look back at that now and I'm like, Oh. How, wait, where did I think that that was my best communication with my kids.

Things were checklists and I was doing important work. I was doing really good work, but I was just at a place then as I'm taking these walks, I think that's where the realization started that Molly, this is more than physical, and so the decision became, are you going to heal and just get back to it. And all of a sudden it was like, I'm not sure.

I want to just get back to it. And I know I told you, and it was like one of the most pivotal points in, in my marriage that ryan and I were talking and arguing a lot, and chronic health is very hard on relationships and families, and, and he was dealing, he was doing what he knew how to do to take care of things.

And obviously I was completely self absorbed in what I had to do to survive. But I remember the moment when I finally looked at him and just said, I don't even know that girl anymore. And you just spent 18 years married to her. Yeah, I'm sorry, but like, I might've really fucked this up because she's not here and I don't think I want her to come back and that, you know, that moment of having to leave work and then taking the walks out every single day and having to be with myself. That's, that's where all of that started to come together. And, and then you can't, I don't know how you could look back. I don't know. I don't know if you could just say, you know, if the skin would have gotten better at that point about it being like, Hey, well, nevermind, let it go.

But, it's kind of like, once, you know. You just know and yeah,

Sarah Marshall, ND: It's a bit, the matrix comes to mind of like, once you take the blue pill.

Molly Evans: Yeah.

Sarah Marshall, ND: You know, and it's like you can not take action on it, but you can't unsee what you've seen. You can't undiscover what you've discovered. And that is where, you know, I have rigorous training in.

All the different ways to impact biochemistry and help bodies detoxify and what it is to, you know, rebalance an immune system and an endocrine system. But the stuff that I want to get out there and work on with physicians and with other people and with, you know, people who deal with chronic illnesses. That's one component. And then there's this discovery process of what were the factors in my life. Like it'd be easy to blame all of this just on, Oh, you just took topical steroids the whole time. But there were other mechanisms at play. In addition, that also is what had you just take the topical steroids the whole time, you know?

And that surfacing happens for all of my clients and they don't all cross the threshold and that's okay. This journey is each and every, oh we have a little humming in the background from your

Molly Evans: Yes my workers in the basement.

Sarah Marshall, ND: K good, we don't quite have production abilities to get rid of that, but we'll just let that be and..

But yeah, it's like

there's that other component that comes up in the self discovery, and I never know what, what that's going to be for people. Although I will say I have had a pretty strong experience that the first interview I did with you, the first interview I do without all of my clients, I stand in that they actually tell me the root of their disease in that conversation. And there's things, people will often be like, I don't know why I'm telling you this, or this doesn't even seem like it's related or you know, it's like, we'll go into these and I just [00:30:00] trust, I trust the innate.... The innate intuition of your own body that wants to heal is tell... Is like having you say things and things are coming out, and that's what I'm also listening, listening for, in addition to analyzing your symptoms.

It'why actually. I literally do, like you mentioned, I take transcripts of what you say and I don't alter cause they're your words and the way you put words together and how you talk about your life gives me clues into where you are in that journey and what you're willing to do next and what you're not.

And you know, that's been critical in my side of the equation when I'm listening to how can I support you in this next cause that's the big question is like now as a healer and as a practitioner. How the heck do I take somebody through the unknown? It's unknown like I, my protocols don't apply anymore once you get to that point. And that can be really unsettling for practitioners who are in the world of, I have the answers and I need to have the answers, and this is the way it works and this is how it always goes and 99% of my patients have these outcomes. Like, cause I was in the unknown with you and there were some of those phone calls and you'd be like, am I doing the right thing, Dr. Marshall? Just tell me. And I'd be like, yes. And we'd get off the phone and I'd cry, but I'm like, this woman is putting so much trust in me and like, Oh my God, am I nuts? You know, and, and there were times too, where you're like, I don't know. I think I might want to just go back on drugs and I'd be like, great, we should investigate that. Let's look even, I think there's one point you even had a prescription, like in your hand and then didn't fill it.

Molly Evans: Yeah. But, but I think that, that, that, like, that onus or that, that. It's like I didn't just put trust in you because you were there. You know? The trust comes because you can't tell somebody you're going to go into the unknown because I would've, I would've looked at you like you were the insane unicorn.

I would've been like, okay, not happening, but okay, weirdo. So it's not even like. It's creating. For me, it's like if you're gonna, if you're going to find a doctor who can actually help you heal, it's allowing space for those questions and those responses and emotions to be vomited out of the body.

Because I wanted initially for you to just give me the freaking answer, and that is what I would say to you, in sometimes not a very nice way. I'm paying you to give me the freaking answer because I have a life over here that I would like to go live. Okay? How much money do you want? Make it better. That's, that's what everybody wants.

And unfortunately that is what gets us deeper and deeper in trouble. And so it's not that just I just trusted you. I really didn't give a crap about trusting you. I didn't really want to know you for six years. I wanted you to fix the problem and let me get back to my life. I really, I didn't understand the idea of having a relationship with your doctor because I didn't want one with my doctor.

I had plenty of relationships that I was working with.

Sarah Marshall, ND: Relationship with a doctor is not one of them. No. Mmnmm

Molly Evans: No. I wanted an answer and I wanted to move on and so, I mean, I would always look at doctors like. Must be nice. Like, here's your answer. Get out of my office. Go away. See you in a year. You know, like there's no relationship. There's no connection.

But that's where the real, that's like asking someone, do you want to heal or do you just want to get a quick fix and move on? And healing's a lot of work. Like it's not, and like you, you just said, not everybody crosses the threshold. I don't, I don't know if everybody has to cross a threshold to heal.

I can't imagine that cause I feel like the world would be. There'd be a lot of insane people out in the woods, and usually it's just me and a few other people with their dogs. So I feel like

Sarah Marshall, ND: You would have seen a lot more people out there on these long walks in the desert.

Molly Evans: Yeah, the desert in Arizona was pretty lonely, you know, 11 a.m. On a Tuesday, so I don't feel like we all cross across the threshold and go there.

So I don't, I don't know. Maybe that's a doctor's perspective, like if, because I'm assuming you give that opportunity to every client. Maybe their journey doesn't need to be that deep. Maybe it doesn't need to be that long. Maybe that, maybe it's coming later. I think we all, I think we all have. We all have healing to do.

Whether we look perfect and are functioning just fine, and

Sarah Marshall, ND: it might be the inside, it might help, whether there were physical symptoms.

Molly Evans: Yes, there's, there's always movement that can be made on that trajectory of being healed. And that's, that was, I guess what I was saying. You know, one of the biggest. AH-HAs was, healing is going to be a lot more than physical right now.

There are so many facets of, of what needs to heal. So, but it's not that I wanted to trust you. I didn't want to, I really didn't want to know you.

Sarah Marshall, ND: I get that.

Molly Evans:  I did trust you because of so many opportunities [00:35:00] that I was able to have you stare back at me on this, you know, on the computer screen and wait for me to figure out the answer.

That's, that's the hardest part of working with a doctor like you is the healing becomes my responsibility. You have tools, you have strategies, you have knowledge. You had great insights and input, but the healing was really that constant inner question of, I don't know what that means. Molly, what does it mean to you?

And I would be like, I don't know but my marriage is falling apart. Why is your marriage falling apart? Because you're sick? Because you don't look the way you want to look? Like, why is it, you know? And it was like such a deeper digestion to have to work through and answer and some of the most frustrating parts.

But, it was, it's like only the work I could do. You couldn't do it for me. I had to do that part and I had to stare back at you while you waited quietly and I'm like, gosh, she's got a long wait time, you know, and education where I was like, give him five seconds, like you could outdo the five. I'm like, she's good.

Like she's really not going to say anything right now, but it's the opportunity because we don't. We don't always get the opportunity to heal cause we want it to happen so fast and get on with our lives. And that's, that's the difference

Sarah Marshall, ND: Like you said at the beginning, it just took, took the time it took and it's taken, right?

Molly Evans: Yeah.

Sarah Marshall, ND: So I have this million dollar question to ask you.

Molly Evans: Woo!

Sarah Marshall, ND: What advice would you give to other people on this journey or that maybe even, are just just waking up to that there's more to this than they thought.

Molly Evans:  Oh. All right? Are you referencing topical stared withdrawals or just

Sarah Marshall, ND: Anything! I mean, that's where I think there's actually a universality to this. I think people healing their marriages, people healing their relationship with estranged children, people healing relationships to drug addicted parents, their physical body, money, or a disease. I actually think there's universality to this, you know?

Molly Evans: Achievement addicts, whatever, yes!

Sarah Marshall, ND: Right, yeah! Addicted to being busy.

Molly Evans: So, so here's. Here's the tricky part about going out and, and I don't know that my, I d- I'm not sure that I've come back with the sword, from the desert or the woods that I'm in now. I, I don't think that I've come back. I feel like I, I'm, I'm somewhere. In the middle, somewhere between, I have learned a lot and I have done a lot.

I now look at Molly from before sickness, before TSW. I love her. And she was, her intentions were amazing and the work she was doing was so purposeful and so great and so good and so worthy. And I still believe in her, her style, the way she did things, but who I am now, I think, is so much greater. And because I'm so much more open, I also am not the answer to so many things.

My curiosity is like, just sometimes it gets the best of me because it's like, ah, you know, I'm like, my passion is even bigger than it was before. And I think I was one of the most passionate people you could bump into on the street. But what I would tell somebody, It's like once, you know, you know, once you see it, you'll know that it was worth it.

it's the hardest, most valuable work you'll ever do. And I think it's when, when you, when you commit to healing and not regurgitating your struggle, you. You, you feel love more than you ever have. Joy becomes something that it's all the good emotions that when you feel them, you are more grateful and appreciative because you know, just how good it feels to be completely honest with yourself and, and you can, you can show up so much more authentically. And so I would just say to anybody that's like, Hmm, do I want to do this work? I don't know if you want to do the work, but once you know, and you start going for it, it's going to hurt like hell and it's gonna rain like horribly, but, but there are, it's, you gotta have, I would say, you need to have a guide who, who along the way will say, look for the different kinds of results, because results don't look the way we think we want them to look. Results are coming in all different ways and all different shapes and forms. So things are gonna come up that you never thought you were [00:40:00] even working on. And, and it's then when the results come in a better marriage, better relationship with your kids, a pace of life that you honor and appreciate. All those parts you go, you know, I can, I can do a little bit of red skin right now. There are so many things that are so much greater and better and, and I hesitate to say like, you don't just go back, cause maybe I, you know, I could've gone back, but you, whatever you become, it's going to be different than it was.

And you will stop the cycle.  That to me is that to me is like the ultimate outcome. If I can stop any of the cycles that were hurting and not helpful.

Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah.

I think that, you know, for some people there was no choice in the matter. They just find themselves in the circumstances and there's like, you know, this by no means is the truth, but what's a more powerful context to say, the world is screwing me over and I have this terrible disease and I'm a victim to it, and now I just can't have the life I want or to look for and be in the inquiry of what's the gift in this? What is this teaching me? What is this showing me?

You know, one of the analogies I've used is that. Let's say we have like a divine spiritual purpose on the planet that we came here with some expression that we wanted to do some project. We want to whatever it is, right? And that's like this life path. And if we're walking on this life path instead of that, there's like wave imbalances. There's a discord, a dissonance, a lack of harmony between those two. And that what for some people that shows up as a physical illness or a disease. And then when we, for me, that's what I'm listening for is as I bring somebody through the healing process, are they getting closer to this?

And my forever hypothesis is when these two lines meet, the symptoms are irrelevant. The body doesn't need to keep talking to you through the symptoms. And that that's. Closing that gap and then life will shift and there might be a new gap for some other reason and not something else. You know what I mean?

That brings up the other big million dollar question, which is, do you think your journey will ever be done? Is there an endpoint to this?

Molly Evans: Yeah. That's, that's funny. That's really actually kinda funny. Yeah. Cause sometimes you're like, I think I've arrived. And you're like, Oh crap. No, I'm not even close. That's why I say I, I, I would like to know what it looks like to carry the sword back out from the woods. And when, you know, when you just said, And by that I'm talking, I'm referencing the warrior coming back out of the unknown.

Sarah Marshall, ND: When you've like completed the hero's journey, you come back with the rewards of your, of your endeavors, and then you bring that back to your tribe. That's kind of the, completion of a cycle.

Molly Evans: As you were just saying. Like I feel like I take my patients and I get to this point of like, were you in discord?

And then all of a sudden there's alignment. It gets closer, closer, and then you get here. So when you said that, I'm like, yay. Really, you didn't tell me that's where we were going cause I'm trying to get there, girl. That to me is carrying the sword out. You know, when you come out and you're like, Hey village, I'm back.

You know, or, or this is back. Molly's here and this is, this is my purpose and this is why I'm here. I don't, I don't, I don't think the journey of healing ever ends. That's why we're still talking six years later. I don't think that the journey, and I think. That we arrive in new places along the way, and so opportunities are going to exist that didn't before.

I think there's, there's purpose that comes along the way. Will I arrive at this grand purpose where I go, that's what this was all about. I'm not there yet. things are still a little messy and confusing. I'm still working through things, even though I thought many times that I had arrived, but that's part of it. That's part of sifting and, and. And allowing for that too, for that to happen. So. I don't think we're good. I hope we don't ever end because I'm learning so much that I'm like, gosh, if I would've thought I've already arrived and I, and I would've just shut the door, like I would miss out, you know? So I'm still learning and I'm more curious than I ever was before, about other people and their journeys. And so I hope it never ends. I, I do. I do appreciate the days that I just feel really good and I'm inspired and I'm light. But I also know how to be so much more grateful for those moments. So.

What would I tell my kids that, you know? No, you're- the journey doesn't, journey doesn't end. You're on a  a river and you don't always know which way it's going to turn, but I think it's that, that, you know, that core, who you are, integrity. You just keep asking yourself those questions [00:45:00] and you keep following the lights that feel good and that take you and help you grow. So, yeah, I don't think it's going to end. You might have me forever. Sorry. Is that what you're asking me?

Sarah Marshall, ND: That would be the greatest gift!

Molly Evans: You're like "are you done yet?" Yeah, so, no, you're not off the hook yet. I ain't there yet. Sorry.

Sarah Marshall, ND: And nor have I been, you know, and, and like my own journey. And. My symptoms of, you know, I had chronic asthma as a kid and dealt with all sorts of immune problems and had a lot of things in my physical body that I don't have those anymore. Like none of that.

There are physical symptoms I have. Those aren't them anymore. Now I have a slipped disc in my back that when I get into certain periods of my life where I'm not accepting help, and I think I'm on my own, and I have to shoulder the burden of life, interestingly enough, my back goes out--weird. And you know, and then I started to recognize in this last round, my back went out and I healed it as fast as ever because I just didn't sit in that space.

I went, okay, who's here to help me? Where am I not accepting it? Where do I get to get support? Where am I not in communication with people being around me that love me, you know? And it. I'd knocked out healing a slipped disc in six weeks. And some people spend years in back pain and then get surgery, you know, over that.

And it's not to discredit, that's their journey, right? But, but then my journey's taken new forms, and there's other, other areas of my life I'm at work on, or other wounds that are maybe more emotional or more spiritual that are, you know, now the layers that I'm peeling off. So I would also say, you know, for me, I think that, in theory, the journey ends the day you die and they put you six feet in the ground, but even then, we don't really know what happens next.

Molly Evans: That next part's going to be good.

Sarah Marshall, ND: Right?

Molly Evans: I would say, you know, to, I guess the advice that I give to my friends that I know that are either stepping into this same journey that I did with topical stared withdrawals or really anything, is that don't get attached to any part of your journey.

Let it keep flowing because I do think, you know, does the journey end, the journey is going to look different every single day. And if you have the mindset of every single day of the journey is progress and you are being guided in a way that is positive and helpful for your ultimate healing, then let yesterday go and keep moving.

Because that's probably one thing that I, I, I see in, you know, as I'm talking to some people, is like, they're so attached to being. In this story and this part, and I'm like, but look how much progress you've made. So I would say, does the journey end? I don't think so, but it certainly shifts and changes and progresses.

Yeah. And that's what I look for. And whether that's emotional, you know, I feel like a lot of my emotional healing came, or was exposed earlier, even though I was physically completely exposed, like it's kind of funny to say that, but I feel like a lot of the emotional stuff came up, the labels, the, all those definitions of things.

I think that kind of stuff is also a big part of the healing. But. I would just say like, let the journey, keep moving and don't stay in any part of the story. Be curious, be questioning, and always keep asking yourself, does this make sense for me? Do I want this in my life anymore? And, and what's, what's the ideal next outcome for me?

And then work with the right doctor, the right healers, the right helpers, books, whatever, you know? Yeah. And that that's like an undressing, you know? I mean, I feel like this whole journey has been a constant undressing down to the simplest practice. You know, where you're like, do I need to have, do I need to spend time on Instagram every day?

Like clean that out. Follow the people that benefit your health and your healing. So when you go on Instagram, you read it and go. Helpful, helpful, helpful, helpful, helpful. You know, like there's so many things we can do to heal. So healing is little things, healings, these grand things. But you know, so no, the journey's not going to end because I still look at what's on my nightstand.

What am I reading? Do I watch TV? No. You know, like what helps me heal and everybody's got to make those decisions for themselves. But I would just say, get out of the rut. First thing, call Dr. Marshall. Have her stare at you for 10 seconds straight and you'll move, you'll move. Just don't stay stuck. Don't commit to being sick.

Don't commit to bad things and like keep the energy moving. Yeah, keep it going.

Sarah Marshall, ND: Oh my God, there's a thousand more conversations around this I want to have next, but we're  going to save it for the next one.

Molly Evans: Perfect.

Sarah Marshall, ND: So, oh my gosh, Molly, thank you. Thank you.

Molly Evans: Thank you, that was healing!

Sarah Marshall, ND: Just for being authentic, right? And getting to express our stories and bare our heart.

And, and I mean it, it, we know vulnerability creates connection. And we know that vulnerability is, you know, such a key missing component in a lot of what we're dealing with in our, my social life, my social world, wherever [00:50:00] we can do this. And I do think that if there is a place where I'm quote unquote a healer, I'm a healer in the same way that everybody is, which is, if one heart can listen and hear another heart's story and you can just have that compassion and be there with the person, that makes a difference. I mean, my patients make a difference for me in my journey and my healing process. I get healed in my own way every single session. I get, you know, 16 to 22 hours of it a week. I'm like a junkie, you know? But like that's the context for me of when I get to be with my people through this process. And then I have my own. Support staff that I've hired in my life to work through as well. So that's awesome that you say that, that even just getting to share our story gets to be healing.

And I hope that, there's people out there that get to listen to this and hear yours and get their own experience of some, I'm not alone in this and thoughtfulness and hearing themselves in your story, cause I think it's, you know, lots of people have never even heard of topical steroid withdrawal, but the way you've dealt with it over the last six years is super inspiring.

You've definitely been a warrior.

Molly Evans: Thank you. That honors me so much. Thank you.

Sarah Marshall, ND: All right, we're going to sign off. All right.

Molly Evans: All right.

Sarah Marshall, ND: Bye.

Molly Evans: Bye.

Sarah Marshall, ND: A dear, thank you to today's guest, Molly Evans, for sharing her truth and her passion with us. You can learn more about finding your own healing by going to Sarah MarshallND.com or follow me on Instagram at @SarahMarshallND. Special thanks to Roddy Nikpour who composed our show music and to our editor, Kendra Vicken.

Thanks for listening. Until next time.