Breaking Free of Epilepsy: When are we Cured? With Ralph Whiteaker

On today's episode, we uncover the power of our words and declaration through the story of Ralph Whiteaker breaking free of epilepsy.

Ralph Whiteaker’s Bio

I was born and grew up in New Mexico where I still live with my wife and family. I have been an artist and painter all my life, expressing life through the gift of color. I also worked as a project manager most of my adult years, largely to pay the bills. It has only been in the last several years that I accepted that I could be both creative and analytical at the same time. I was 36 in 1984, when I experienced my first grand mal seizure and was diagnosed with epilepsy. For the next 30 years I had petit mal seizures as often as 2-3 times a month and a few more grand mal seizures. Medications were changed a few times but had no significant impact. I was 66 when I decided to take responsibility for my condition and not be a victim of it any longer. I have been seizure-free for the past 7 years now and am committed to remaining so.

Full Transcript

Sarah Marshall, ND: Welcome to heal the podcast. On today's episode, we uncover the power of our words and declaration through the story of Ralph Whitaker breaking free of epilepsy. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Marshall.

Ralph, thanks so much for being here. Thanks for doing this and sharing about your journey with us here on the healing project. 

Ralph Whiteaker: Oh, you're welcome. I'm glad to do that. 

Sarah Marshall, ND: Good. Awesome. So I'm going to kind of let you just dive in to, you know, introducing what it is that you have healed. Well, or, or however you would say it. Like that's the words that I've been using, but you get to use your own language around it. 

Ralph Whiteaker: Okay. So let me just provide a little background then. So what I have taken on, sort of clearing for myself is, epilepsy. And in 1984, I had a grand mal seizure at that point. It was right after my wife and I had moved to Albuquerque.

We had adopted a brand new baby. I came with no job. My wife was starting a new job and my wife's mother was dying. So there was lots and lots of stress happening all at the same time. So initially we mark it up to all of the stress that was happening right then. So it was a real surprise to all of us. And, Not something we ever expected or could have necessarily planned for. 

Sarah Marshall, ND: How old were you at that point? 

Ralph Whiteaker: I was about 35 at that point. So, you know, pretty much a midlife experience. Since then, since 1984 I've had about four to five grand mal seizures, and I've also had Petit mal seizures about once or twice a month as well. Ever since that, and I'm conscious during those, but it's,  a very Spacey feelings, but it's, I can say it, but those were continuous. And sometimes when there was more stress, I'd have more than that. But typically it was one to two a month that I was having. And that was where not a whole lot of fun, obviously.

In 2014, I had a major car accident, and I think that the cause of that was either having a peti mal where I basically lost control or a grand mal seizure. We don't know, but I think that that's a possibility that had happened. And after that I decided it was just time, you know, consider doing something about this, but I really didn't know what it would be. You know, I've always heard that epilepsy is something that you can't be cured from. That's certainly what all of the doctors in Western medicine, had you know, talked about. Everything I read was basically the same thing. Once you have it, you always have it.

But I decided this to take a look at that and see what can I do to maybe shift things for myself to at least at the very least, reduce the number of peti mal’s that I was having on a regular basis. So I did a couple of things, one is I went to a doctor of Oriental medicine. Am I now. And we talked about this and what we might do.

So, some of the workup that she did included starting out with a food panel just to see what foods may be, were, not agreeing with me or might be causing some problem. And I actually found that interesting because, years earlier, I had experimented a little bit because I had the suspicion that eating cow’s cheese, would was one of the things that actually caused the peti mals.  And I experimented with that a little bit by, eating, you know, heavy amounts of that, like I would normally do and waiting for a day to see what happened. And it went really well. It became very clear to me that that was the case. So I did some research into that and, cow’s cheese is one of the most difficult things for the body to digest. So my body was working hard to do that and it created I suppose an internal type of stress that that actually caused that. I talked to my neurologist at that time and he pretty much poo-pooed the idea because it's like, okay, that, that's not an electrical stimulation, you know, that can't cause it.

But I was pretty convinced that that was at least one thing that was, that was causing those and it was a form of stress on my body. So when I talked to the doctor of Oriental medicine, we talked about that as well. And when we did the food panel, dairy products in general were one thing that we identified, we're just not, something I should be taking on any kind of a regular basis. And that was, that was okay, for the most part.  Living in New Mexico, cheese is a part of, enchiladas. So it was like, okay, I'm going to have to, to moderate this, but I can't give it up a hundred percent. So, but anyway, and looking at that, there were a number of things there, and so I took that on and shifted my diet to move away from those.

Now I'm a vegetarian and have been almost all my life, so meat was not a particular problem. There was no issues with digesting meat or, anything around that.  And some of the other things that we did was we started some acupuncture treatments, and those were done, I think, largely to, treat some different kinds of symptoms that I were having. Some of those were stress-related. Some may have been just because, I wasn't feeling well for some other reason. So we did a series of those, and each time that I would do those, it would be a little bit different depending on the immediate symptoms that we're looking at.

Sarah Marshall, ND: whatever you were looking at, at that time, yeah. 

Ralph Whiteaker: Right. and those, those were great. I, you know, I always felt, a release of something that, after one of those acupuncture treatments, so whatever the cause might have been, it was stress or some other factor, you know, that, that, that cleared that up for the for that time being. And the other thing that we did was she recommended a number of supplements, for me to take and just to kind of balance out the nutrients that I had in my body that I was taking in and so on. And, she and I talked a lot about how to relieve some of the immediate stressors in my life. One of the stressors that has always kinda been there for me as my job. And, You know, things that would come up would just be challenging in the sense that, I was never quite sure, how to handle some things or how, how to necessarily relate to some people that were involved in that.

And I'll talk about that just a little bit more later on here. One of the things that she recom... recommended to me, they also, and this was a real surprise, was to find a way to hang upside down. I was kind of surprised at that, but it was like, okay, I'll see what I can do about that. And at first, I couldn't figure out a way to do that successfully, you know, looked at the doors in the house and, eventually I saw a, an inversion table, and that was the perfect solution for that. So I bought one and one 

Sarah Marshall, ND: i have one in my living room... 

Ralph Whiteaker: and I used it for about five minutes every night, and it's amazing. The good that it does, provides me a few minutes to kind of meditate and just let go of things from the day, which I think is probably as important a part of that as allowing my body to relieve some of the stress to, to straighten up literally from the day, you know, and I felt a huge difference in my spine and my posture and so on. So that has made a big difference. I think it's part of the healing, that, that we took on 

Sarah Marshall, ND: well in versions are really popular in, in yoga because it's like we spend. 90 well, I mean, I guess sleep, we lay down horizontally, but mostly we spend, you know, 99% of all of our time just straight up and down and gravity is pulling on our organs and on our systems in a particular way.

And so even just inversing that, you know, five minutes out of the day, there's a lot of history to that in, in yoga as well, of the difference that it makes in lymphatic flow and opening things up and changing how the pressure is on your spine and all of that kind of stuff. And yeah, it's definitely got a lot of history to it, but it's interesting to look at like what the specifics would be for you.

Ralph Whiteaker: Well, and it also changed the blood flow, obviously, because blood flow into my head and my feet.  I could definitely feel a shift there because my head is where I would feel the peti mals, obviously. There was just a change in how that would affect me and I can feel the change even during the day, because I had had done that previous night.

Sarah Marshall, ND: the previous night...

Ralph Whiteaker: Right. Something else that we did that was really a surprise to me, but it made an enormous difference was she did what I would call a guided journey through the depth of emotional baggage that I had going all the way back to my childhood. And what it consisted of was, her asking me to look at what kind of emotions I had on the surface, what was immediately there for me in terms of, things that were bothering me that was, mentally and emotionally stressing me out and to just like be present to that and then to go to the next level and to see what was there under that.

And we went through this process peeling away layers and layers of emotion going all the way back to childhood, and I didn't have to express what they were. I just had to look inside myself and kind of get present to whatever that was at the time. The, the effect of that was after we were done, you know, we would, go all the way to the bottom, like I said, and then she would work me back up through the layers again.

So it got back to the present eventually. She had had me doing some reading about this type of treatment, that other people have used and it sounded a little, kind of oddball to me, you know? Well, I don't know, but. I guess I'll give it a try because I have the goal of getting rid of these peti mals and anything that might work towards that will make a difference.

So I did that. And the next, the next day, I didn't feel a whole lot of difference, but a couple of days later, I noticed that suddenly there was this real, feeling of peace, a feeling of I'm not carrying around that emotional baggage anymore. All I can say is it was a real letting go of things that have been there since childhood 

Sarah Marshall, ND: Was this one session or did you do like multiple? 

Ralph Whiteaker: It was one session and I have to say, that doing that, I could recognize that since, I was very young that I started having a lot of stresses in my life because of just the situation in my family and at home, and the real uncertainty of myself and, you know, how I fit into the family, how I fit into life and so on. And I recognized that I carried that and actually that type of emotion had grown inside of me for a long time.

One of the things that I had, later on as a teenager was I was very ill. I had a very bad intestinal problem that was literally life threatening. And I had that for over a course of about three years or so. I missed the last couple of years of high school as a result, I was too ill to go. I eventually got my GED and started back to college, but in very limited basis, you know, a class at a time, and I guess I started to heal physically from all of that, that illness that I had and they never really identified what exactly it was. It was just kind of a general. weakening of the body and the intestine and that was as much as they could they could figure there was no real obvious physical...

Sarah Marshall, ND: did you deal with like cramping or pain or diarrhea or constipation? Was it just like…? 

Ralph Whiteaker: It was all of those things. I, it was very, very severe abdominal pain, when I would have it and, I would just be completely unable to, to do anything while I had that. And it went in phases there every, maybe every three months or so, my dad had to take me out of state to a special hospital to treat it.

I would be there for a couple of weeks, come back home. And another three months later, we'd wind up going back again. We did this over the course of a couple of years. I lost a great deal of weight in a period of time, and I've never actually been able to gain that back, but it's like, okay, that's just the way it is.

And so it was, you know, it was a very serious condition and I wasn't really sure about what that, look like in, in terms of just my life as a whole, we never determined what caused it. So it was like, it's still a mystery or was still a mystery. But one of the things I will say about that, and I'm seeing that as part of a larger pattern in my whole life, and this is, to me this is an essential part of the healing from the epilepsy.

Because what I saw was that throughout most of my life, I had had some type of, body illness. And over the years it shifted from one part of my body to another and I saw it moving really from my intestinal area up through my body because as a young adult, I had various kinds of problems as well, up to the point where in 1984 I had the grand mal seizure.

And you know, for a while we just didn't know. I didn't make a connection between us. So, but when I started the treatment with the doctor of Oriental medicine, what I began to see was that things were all connected. And it's like, okay, if they're all connected, what, what's happening there? Being able to see it as a movement in my body from one place to another was a real awakening for me because it was like, there is not any one physical cause or problem for what was happening. It really was, that I was holding in so much emotion, fear, these type of things. That it really caused the, the stomach and the, the, intestinal problems. Because, you know, you get ulcers from worry and from stress and so on and so forth.

And so because I saw this going, moving through my body, the question began to appear to me, why would that be? What is going on that, that, that's happening. So at that point I, I realized that the epilepsy itself was probably more a symptom of something else that was going on much deeper rather than there being like a physical specific cause cause to it. The doctors at that time had done lots of EKG and EEG and so on, and they never determined anything specific there either. 

Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. Which is pretty common with epilepsy too. I mean, they're often, they'll go looking, but there's not physical origins for a lot of people.

I've had, not myself personally, but through other practitioners heard of stories of, similarly, people with epilepsy going through a process of doing food sensitivity testing, getting that out of their system, doing some amino acid testing, rebalancing, nutrition, and like just those kind of overview alone will start to decrease at least the significance or frequency.

And then, you know, you start unwinding it, but then there's these other deeper layers. And like, what I wanted to interject is a couple of things. One, I've seen that same thing in myself where when I was nine months old, I had my first asthma attack. Now, they didn't diagnose it as asthma was nine months old, I’m  nonverbal at that point. It was just this upset baby. But, I got diagnosed at 18 months with it, with asthma. And I had all kinds of upper respiratory infections. I had mono, I dealt with asthma and pneumonia through most of my childhood and into junior high. And then the mononucleosis happened, and then I got strep throat from that and then I ended up with antibiotic resistance strep throat. And they took my tonsils out when I was 18. And all this upper respiratory stuff started to basically stop. I didn't have hardly ever any breathing problems. I didn't get sick very often. And in college I started to have chronic constipation and seasonal depression.

And then in med school I got migraine headaches and it just like was this progression and I can see where there was a seizing and constriction in my bronchial tubes for asthma. Then there was a seasoning and constriction in my digestion with constipation, and then there was a seizing and constriction in my emotions with seasonal depression that became just generalized anxiety. And it was just this, like everything was just going into these deeper layers into my body and then coming back out. And in naturopathic school we have a, but, philosophy called Hering's law. And in Hering's law, the body will express disease on the most superficial level that it can, and if it's suppressed or it doesn't get to complete that process and actually heal all the way, it'll go to the next deeper layer.

And so like little kids, everything is projectile vomiting and diarrhea and skin rashes and fevers. It's all on the outside of the body and things are getting eliminated and pushed out. And then if that doesn't get resolved, like there's even a common, history for kids with epilepsy where it started out with atopic dermatitis or eczema, then becomes asthma, then becomes epilepsy because it's literally the same process going deeper into their body. And then when you heal somebody's Hering's law unwinds. So it's like you ended up going back to previous levels physically as well as emotionally until we're back to skin rashes and diarrhea and vomiting basically.

So that's really cool that you had that visceral experience in that connection, getting made of all of those components together for yourself. Cause it's, it's a totally different way of looking at diseases and what we deal with physically. Like that's a really big deal. 

Ralph Whiteaker: Right… and epilepsy is one of the spectrum diseases where, when it shows up, how it shows up, is there's a broad range of that. And because of that, there is no single diagnosis as to, you know, what the problem is, what causes it and so on. And one of the things that I discovered along the way also is that people tend to, use the terminology well, he's an epileptic. Or, you know, he's autistic or something of that nature, and I, I just took the stand that that's not who I am.

You know who I am and somebody who has epilepsy, but that's not the definition of who I am. So that was a, that was an important piece of the healing overall is if that's something that I have, then the question is, is it something that I can let go of? And I set that aside and move beyond it. And I would sometimes correct people when they would say, you're an epileptic, or, in the case of my grandson, he's autistic. I would say, well, that's not who he is, you know, is this somebody who has epilepsy or autism or whatever, but that's not the definition of who they are. 

Sarah Marshall, ND: And I love how you said that. If, if you have it, it implies the possibility of being able to let it go versus like if you are it, you are it and it's not going anywhere. That's a big deal. Yeah.

Ralph Whiteaker: And that's how people tend to think of how our society thinks of these kinds of diseases. The idea behind it is once you have it, you always have it and you can never get rid of it. Another piece of the activities that I took on towards healing. This was a continuum of my Tai Chi and Chi gong work, which I had given up quite a few years earlier because of some other things that I was doing. But the point there was to just become much more aware of my own internal energy and being able to harness that and get connected back to that again. And that's been a very important part of it because it is a very matter of meditative process, but it also allows me to have some control over the energy and light body and how that's flowing and that makes a difference emotionally, makes a difference physically and so on. So all of the things that I have talked about so far have been a part of the healing completely. And there was no single one saying there was no specific medications. It, it took place over a period of about two years, but I could, after a year, I could see a shift in where things were going.

And all of these are still things that I'm aware of and I incorporate into my lifestyle in one way or another. Just because they're healthy anyway. So when I, took on visiting the doctor of Oriental medicine, I also talked to my neurologist at that time, and I said, my goal is to get off of my medications completely. And he was open to the possibility of that, he at least didn't poopoo the idea, you know, right away. So he agreed to work with me on that. And, between that and the other treatments that I was getting, we were able to take me off of one of the medications entirely. And the other one we reduced to a very minimal dose, which is, I am on that right now and I still have the goal of eventually getting off of that. You know, and I, I recognize that I may or may not ever achieve that goal of completely getting off of medications. But for me, what's important is that I always have a goal out there, that there is something, that I recognize is still possible. And I work towards that continually. 

When I recognized that this epilepsy was really just the latest physical manifestation of illnesses, you know, since I was a child, I began to see that maybe this was a lesson in my life that the universe was you know, providing for me that there was something to be learned from all of this, and it was really the same source of, discomfort and illness that was causing it and just that it was a moving around in my body. I saw that this is something I could, I could deal with, in a different way. You know, it changed the perspective of what I have. And I've always felt that you know, you are provided lessons during your lifetime for your growth. So in seeing this, I recognize that if that's what it is, if it's a lesson, then I can declare that, I've learned the lesson. So I literally declared out  and out to the universe and to my friends that I get the lesson. And thank you for providing that, and I'm done with it now. I don't need it anymore. I feel that that was a really important piece of it for me because it's separated me and who I am from the, from the illness itself. And I, I really did recognize a big shift then and internally am my emotions and the way I thought about myself in a way I thought about, you know, just the circumstances of my life and so on. and the thing that came out of that was that I now owned the epilepsy instead of it owning me.

Sarah Marshall, ND: Wow. 

Ralph Whiteaker: it was something that I could take on and I could, I could control, I could work with it. So overall, you know, my, the way the treatment that I took on covered a wide range of approaches to it. Some were to, deal with specific symptoms, but a lot of it was to, recognize, first of all internally, what was really going on inside my life that was a stress that was, contributing to this problem and just to my relationship to myself and really to the circumstances around me in my life. So taken all together, it gave me the control to take this on. And I've not had any peti malls and no grand mals for a period of about six years now, which is a huge shift from having peti mals, you know, a couple of times a month, to really a complete freedom around that.

You know, is a cured? Probably most Western doctors would say, well, no, cause you always have it but to me that if I'm not having it show up in my life, anymore then it's not a part of who I am anymore. It's not a part of my life and I, I've done something that is totally transformed, whatever was causing that. So it really was a case of treating the entire system as opposed to trying to focus on symptoms itself.

Sarah Marshall, ND: or even just the nervous system. You know, your gut was involved, your immune system was involved, all of that and emotions and your life. 

Ralph Whiteaker: Right? Yeah. And just, you know, total. Totally how I thought about myself. It was important. And I enrolled, by physicians, I enrolled my friends, I enrolled my family and what I was doing, and gained all of their support that they didn't know, you know, what difference it would make and so on, but they recognize that, this is what I wanted to do and they were very supportive of that.

So I didn't do it in isolation either, and I didn't do it in isolation from, the universe from, whatever energies or powers or, you know, outside of me. I did it all by combining all of those things together. 

Sarah Marshall, ND: Can you speak to a little bit of what you saw as like changed in you? You've talked about it kind of generally of like how you were before and how you are now about your, like yourself or your relationship to yourself.

Ralph Whiteaker: My relationship to myself was one of never being very certain or very comfortable about how I appeared to other people, you know? What did other people think of me? I've always been pretty withdrawn and I thought of myself as being very much an introvert in my life. I would always listen to the conversation that people were having before I would even think about trying to contribute to it. So it was a very, isolated internal, a sense of myself that I had. And one of the things that shifted for me and that I, consciously took on shifting was being more comfortable with who I am and then being able to be more comfortable with people around me or being in groups or being able to, you know, contribute, openly to others, being able to really just even start a conversation. So I think that that being something that I grew up with, is something that contributed to all of this. And because it was very internal process, you know, it just became very buried in my emotions. My family that I grew up in did not express themselves very much. So I never really learned how one expresses oneself, you know? And so it all just became buried deeper and deeper. And this guided journey through the emotional baggage really allowed me, first of all, to see that, even though I kind of always recognized that that was there, it was more intellectual than anything else. And that process allowed me to actually get in touch with what all of those things were and to begin to, let go of them in the sense that I could be complete with the fact that they were happening and then it had happened to me and in the past. So I think that, that, that was one of the root causes was the inability to express myself and the withdrawing from other people and never being very certain of who I was, how I was perceived by other people in this type of thing. 

Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. You know, I, I got a lot of this from Chinese medicine, which you talked about working with an Oriental medicine practitioner and, In medical school, I took every elective I could get away with in the Chinese medicine doctoral program because I just was fascinated by the way that they saw the world and saw the body and the interconnection. I mean that in Chinese medicine, there's 3000 years of writing about the connections between specific emotions and body parts and expressions of symptoms and all of those things. Not just even like in our culture, we've gotten to the point where we can generally say stress, but what is that? Right? And it can get all the way down into very specific, you know, disgust in your kidneys and anguish in your lungs and like, it can get all the way into these specifics. And I know that one of the key principles that I got from my time studying Chinese medicine, and this also translates over into natural medicine, is as long as there's flow happening, things are moving, we can work with it, we can keep healing it, we can keep guiding it. But when there's stagnation or suppression, when things just get stopped and like that withdrawal you're talking about or not being able to express ourselves. It's almost like there innately is always an energy to be moving and if we stop the energy from moving, it has to, it's like damming a river. It has to go somewhere. Something happens with it. So I can see that in what you're sharing about your experience of like not being able to, or not coming from a family that expressed themselves very much and how that could have impacted your nervous system and your body physically until you then basically created openings for a discharge.

The discharge being you, getting you out in the world and connecting to people in that way, and it's really beautiful the way you share that. And it's something that I've seen. Yeah. Again, for myself and also with my clients is when sometimes we'll do a liver detox and someone's like, I don't really know why, but I like, I'm getting along way better with my spouse. And it's like we just moved a whole bunch of anger out of their liver and now there's this like peacefulness and reciprocity showing up in their relationships, and that's not an accident. How we're all connected in those ways. It's just your story just so elegantly point points of our paints, a picture of that. Yeah. 

Ralph Whiteaker: Yeah. And this is one of the reasons why the chi gong and the Tai Chi practice is so important is because it does keep those channels open for the energy to flow. And when I feel, the energy flying, I'm at peace. I'm comfortable. I'm no longer judging myself when I'm around other people. And I feel, I feel free to, to participate, I feel free to, be a part of the group again, to be a part, even of just another person and not constantly judge myself about, you know, am I doing the right thing? How do they see me? So on and so forth. So that, that is really, I've let go of that a great deal and I'd really don't have the sort of self judgment constantly anymore.

Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. Well, anything else? Any parting words? Any like words of advice for people that are on the journey, figuring this stuff out? 

Ralph Whiteaker: I guess a couple of things I would say was that it's important to recognize that whatever you have is not the definition of who you are, that it's something, that you can learn from and it's really the learning is the growing the process for somebody. And by, by recognizing it out loud, literally to other people. And this is why declaring it, to the universe was it important to me is because I was able to acknowledge it and express it out loud for the first time. And that caused the separation from me and the illness and it became a thing that could potentially be managed. But I think also seeing that circumstances that happen to us in our life, whether it be a physical ailment or, some things that happen that we can accept that those are, something we can learn from, whether we think it was an intentional lesson from, you know, the universe or whatever, it's always something that we can learn from. And that's that, that's the most positive way to, look at these kinds of circumstances. And I think that that's an essential part of any kind of healing. 

Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. The way I share it with my clients is, is your symptoms are your body's way of talking to you. And when you actually get the communication, the lesson, then they doesn't need to keep saying sending it. You know? It's like when the communication is received. Then it can stop sending that message to you. You know? And like I've had all kinds of things. I have a, I've had a slipped disc in my back that comes up from time to time, and a big part of what my body's communicating is slow down and get support. And when I start actually actively doing that in the last time it happened, I went from not being able to walk to completely pain free in six weeks because I just got, I got the communication. Okay, here it is again. I got to slow down. I got to get support. I got to move through some of the emotional things coming up, and I did, you know, some stretches and some, you know, acupuncture and some things specifically for my back, but it was all encompassing. It was the whole thing. And in six weeks, completely healed a slipped disc, which some people live in the world of like once it's out, it's out and he could take 10 months to heal that. 

Ralph Whiteaker: Yeah. And I, and I would say that I am very aware of when things get too stressful or when I began to feel and turn on you like I'm, I'm starting to judge myself or make myself wrong about things that that's a sign that it's time to stop for a moment and just kind of regroup. And so I do that. I'll listen to that and I, I will take that, that kind of action on that always. But that's kind of like taking the cap off the pressure cooker so to speak. But I listened to that and I can hear that clearly when it starts to happen. 

Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. Awesome. Great. Well, thank you for so much wisdom today. Thanks for sharing your story and your heart and your life with us, and, Ralph, I just really appreciate you coming to join us. 

Ralph Whiteaker: Well, you're welcome. I'm glad to do it. You know, I hope that anything that I've said, somebody can pick up something from and, and take on for themselves.

Sarah Marshall, ND: Awesome. Great. All right, well, we'll sign off and we'll see you soon.

Ralph Whiteaker: Okay. Okay. Bye.

Sarah Marshall, ND: Thanks to today's guest, Ralph Whitaker for sharing his story with us. You can learn more about finding your own healing by going to SarahMarshallND.com or follow me on Instagram at Sarah Marshall ND special thanks to Rodney Nikpour, who composed our show music into our editor, Kendra Vicon. Thanks for being here.

Until next time.