What Men Need to Heal, Thrive, and Be Powerful with Performance Coach Ed Kennedy
On today's episode, performance coach and leader of men's transformational workshops, Ed Kennedy, dives deep into what men need to heal, to thrive, and to be powerful in a world that is cast them as both predator and protector.
Referenced in the Show:
Ed’s Bio:
Ed Kennedy is an income and abundance coach with ten years experience leading transformational seminars to thousands of participants around the world. Through private coaching and group courses, Ed specializes in empowering women to achieve their highest earning potential.
Ed has helped build several multi-million dollar businesses including contributing to a $1.14 billion dollar valuation and sale of a global software company.
For more information join him and his fiancé's private Facebook group for women; Money Makers and Sexy Savers.
Full Transcript:
Sarah Marshall, ND: Welcome to HEAL. On today's episode, performance coach and leader of men's transformational workshops, Ed Kennedy, dives deep into what men need to heal, to thrive, and to be powerful in a world that is cast them as both predator and protector. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Marshall. (music)
Sarah Marshall, ND: Thank you, Ed for being here and being willing. I was actually particularly looking for men to share about, I have a thing where like all of a sudden I looked at and they were all women and I was like, I need more men to talk about what's going on for them. And you were the first person I thought of in that category. So thank you for being here to share your journey and your gifts and your expertise with us.
Ed Kennedy: I'm so glad to be on because you're right. You can throw a rock in any direction and find men, but you won't necessarily get them to open up much. Particular on the subject of healing, which is something I've studied for several years, working with men through a process of healing, but something that you have to, if you want to give something to somebody else, you often have to go through it yourself.
So it's really just been a very personal journey of my own healing. So I'm so excited to dive in and explore the different aspects of this conversation. Cause it's quite dense.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah, we probably will end up getting to the end going and now we want to do three more of these.
Totally. So tell me a little bit about like, like how would you describe your work? Like who are you to the world? The work that you're doing right now with men?
Ed Kennedy: I'm a performance coach. That's what I specialize in. you know, when I get shoulder to shoulder with my clients it's really about tuning up their performance, often times they come to me, men come to me wanting to transform their business and their performance in their business.
You know, as men we're so driven by the status and acceptance of our income as a, as a measurement of our worth. So a lot of men come to me wanting performance in business and they certainly get it, but oftentimes we've got to go into these other arenas, like their relationship with themselves, their relationship with substances, their relationship to their routines and how they manage their lives; their exercise, their diets, their rituals.
There's so many things that affect performance that are not the X's and O's that you would think of in a business playbook. But that's what I love to dive into from a physical, emotional, and spiritual level with my clients. So I work in performance coaching there, and, but the entry point for a lot of men with me is attending the warriors weekend, which is a three-day retreat.
Where we get together and it's not a boys weekend is a men's weekend. And it's really about getting into some of these arenas that we don't talk about and allowing that environment to open up where men can deal with what they're dealing with in their lives, in a safe environment. So that's one side of my business. And then with my fiance, we have also tuned up and brought out to the world, all of her skills in money coaching and how to bring in abundance. And that's a lot of what I bring to women ironically, is, is how to then bring in the kind of income that you want and deserve through the same kind of work. So it's all very... It's all related, but where men and women are starting are often in different places. And oftentimes it's integrating the masculine and feminine aspects of ourselves, more completely. Women allowing their masculine traits to come out in a way that they can own. And men allowing feminine traits to come out in a way that they can own. And that those parts of us that we've suppressed is where suffering is breeding in people's lives.
Sarah Marshall, ND: I love, I love that we're having this conversation because you know, one of the things I did want to put into the Heal podcast is that heal can be any area of life: healing our relationship to money, healing our relationship to power, healing our businesses. It's it's I think there's universal background conversations or nuggets or, or techniques. I don't know what even the word is that that make a difference. And it's so cool to hear you say, like I'm a performance coach and I look at ritual and diet and all of that, cause I also tell my clients, they come to me for health and I'm like, you're probably gonna make more money and your relationships are going to get better as we like clean stuff up, you know, in their systems, 'cause it's all so related. Can we just dive in, like, what are some of the things that you feel like are those unspoken? The stuff that doesn't get said that you start to see make a difference for people?
Ed Kennedy: Well, a lot of the beginning of this process is to recognize that you are suffering needlessly, that there's, we often don't feel like we're constrained, when in fact we are. You walk around and you'll talk to people in your lives and they'll say, how are you doing? And they'll say, I'm fine. And that is a very common reoccurring statement said by millions of people every single day, but there's not a lot of introspection to say, am I okay? And what if I'm not? And there's so much energy put into suppressing the fact that we're not okay with certain aspects of our lives. We're not okay with our relationships. We're not okay with our health. We're not okay with our income. We're not okay. And making that, okay, is the first step.
And I think it shows up in many different ways. I mean, the deepest work that I've done with men and with myself is in men's relationship to sex. That is the, probably one of the biggest arenas of the man's life that is seen as everything's fine. And wouldn't necessarily reveal to another man, certainly not to women. But definitely not to themselves, that they are suffering in that area and that there's any consequence on themselves or on people around them. So a lot of the work that I ended up doing with men is around restoring their relationship to sex and the sex acts that they've participated in, in their lives and being able to integrate their kind of lower self, their primal desires. I think right now where we are as a society is that men are suppressing a lot of their, they're expressing in a way, in an unhealthy way, their sexual desire and therefore suppressing the opportunity to have that be more healthy. So that's, that's where we dive in oftentimes is into that, that shit.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Just that; we just go there, just like, yeah, I love it. Good!
Ed Kennedy: I was thinking about, like the Heal podcast and all these acronyms started floating through my head and I was like, what is that to heal? What's it like, I love playing with words and heal to me. It could be an acronym of Help Everyone Accept Love, you know, that like what healing is is, is helping everyone except love into their lives.
And then I laughed. So I was like, that's what I need. So it's really Helping Ed Accept Love, (laughs)
Sarah Marshall, ND: Helping Ed Accept Love: HEAL. (laughs) That's awesome.
Ed Kennedy: If I default, you know, my ego will make it all about me. So of course the HEAL podcast, Helping Ed Accept Love.
Sarah Marshall, ND: That's what my five year journey has been for this moment to help Ed accept love. And I'm, I'm aligned with that. That actually, you know, it's actually really interesting that you even put that together because at the top of all my treatment plan, I have, I did quote myself from my own treatment plan, but they came to see me and it's a quote of mine that says health exists in your body the degree to which you accept love and disease exists in your body, the degree to which you reject or resist love. Now I can say it even more boldly. I just like people munch on that, which is like, you're going to be as healthy as you're willing to love yourself. And you're going to be as diseased as you're willing to hate yourself.
Self hatred and self rejection is a huge part of the process of what I ended up getting into, you know, and it is ends up being, they come to me because of fibromyalgia or hormone imbalances. And we ended up talking about their businesses and their routines and their relationships. You and I technically come from this performance business coach, health coach, or naturopathic doctor, and yet that interlacing of all the different areas of our life and how that impacts everything. And I've opened myself up way more to start working with clients around sexuality and sexual expression, and that that's a vital part of their health and healing that that's like an integral part of being a whole human is a healthy, loving, nourishing, powerful relationship to sex.
Ed Kennedy: Yeah. I mean, we are so skilled at deceiving ourselves. It's not even funny. I mean, for everything from that lack of that momentary glance in the mirror in the morning, when you don't like what you see in the reflection to the ongoing conversation you have with your self before you go to bed that, you know, am I enough? You know, those are, these are these, these conversations that happen in everyone's life, but yet the impulse is to reject them to pretend like that's not happening to pretend like. I liked myself or I love myself. And a lot of men in particular are really struggling with that to be able to accept themselves, to accept how they are in the world, how they've behaved in their past, where they are on the path of their life and what they see the future they see they're stepping into and living into are often we're deceiving ourselves about the reality that we're in.
and that is. I believe a source of suffering for men. And there's a difference between suffering and pain. Pain is a very natural response to stimulus. It's healthy, it's helpful. Pain is a message. And then messages wake up. You know, if you have physical pain, that's your body communicating. If you have emotional pain, that's your emotional center, communicating to you. If you have spiritual pain, it's communication, but we often do a suppress dealing with the pain and then compound suffering on top of it, so suffering is always optional. the pain isn't necessarily optional. I think when we talk about healing, it seems like this for men, I can see that a lot of men see it as this very soft, feminine, unattractive this, unmasculine, unmanly thing, to really get engaged in; even admit that there might need to be some healing going on, either through dialogue or through action or through contemplation or meditation to heal the aspects of ourselves that we don't accept. And I think that's fundamentally what is going on.
I mean, and to make it really real, like there are things that I've done in my past sexually that I'm not proud of. And there's aspects of that behavior that I haven't integrated into my life now. And as much as it's in the past, and it's been quote, unquote, completed, it's these subtle reminders that you don't always live up to the image that you have of yourself.
Yeah, we all project this image out to the world. This is who I am. I'm this type of person. And I want people to believe in that identity because it makes it more real for me. But underneath that we know because of our behavior or actions, we're not that. We can be. And there's evidence for that. We are who we want to be, but there's also evidence for that we are who we don't want to be. So throughout my journey and might adolescence growing up, I had such a negative relationship with sex. It was all about me getting what I wanted. It was all about me serving my needs and to a certain extent as a child, that makes sense. That's how human beings are kind of wired, but to then contemplate the consequences of that mindset and cascade that out through romantic relationships, one night stands, just the, the behavior in, in college life and college scenes is not pretty, and it, and it nearly cost me my whole livelihood. I was put on trial for an assault case because I got drunk and tried to kiss a woman. And it got ugly. I mean, that that devastated my life, dominated my life for two years.
And I was acquitted of the charges and I was found not guilty of those charges, which is a huge relief legally, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't damage caused emotionally or spiritually on me or that other person. And so that is a huge process that I have continued to contemplate and work. And when, when I work with men, I think because I've had that experience and come to the other side and found forgiveness, which I think is one of the keys to unlocking healing is forgiveness, which we can kind of flag and come back to and really dive into.
Sarah Marshall, ND: I'm just going to set that there for a moment. Yeah.
Ed Kennedy: To put forgiveness on the table, cause it's one of the most difficult medicines to take down. you know, it's much easier to take some Tylenol or take some alcohol and drug and knock yourself out and
Sarah Marshall, ND: all the other ways
Ed Kennedy: start to let it let forgiveness in. but that journey, I've really discovered that there's two ways that we can try to deal with this as human beings. And particularly as men. We can go back and integrate that lower part of ourselves that, that, that, primal sexual desire. We can go back and integrate that, we can accept it and we can start to live. And express ourselves sexually in a healthy way that sees our sexual partners as human beings first and not objects, that sees sex as a mutual exchange of love and connection and energy.
We can start to practice that in our lives and forgive ourselves and ask for forgiveness for what we have done in the past. That's the integrated model for not rejecting sex desires. The alternative, and what I think most men do is they suppress those sexual desires. It's about pushing it down, pushing it away. You see a lot of challenges to, you know, give up masturbation, give up sexual desires, to renounce and let go of, and to a certain degree, that's very healthy and I've practiced all of this. I tried it all. (Sarah laughs) But oftentimes there's this idea that we need to get rid of, of this part of ourselves. And I think that's what a lot of men are suffering over, is that there's this part of themselves that deep down in their, in their most private moments with themselves, they know they haven't been the kind of man that their mother would be proud of with their sexual partners. They've all held on to the onto the extreme of, you know, rape and sexual assault all the way to the most subtle, but often even more damaging, you know, ambiguous sexual encounters that lead to women being taken advantage of.
And we don't like that part of ourselves and we twist ourselves into pretzels saying to justify our behavior. But ultimately we know there's this kind of spiritual core that's getting plucked, where we know that's not the way that we should be living and that there are other human beings involved and we are involved and there's an energetic exchange going on that can cause harm and can cause people to live all kinds of lies as a consequence of how to get away from those experiences. So I feel like that rejection model isn't necessarily sufficient, you know, I've tried it, but I found that the more I try to run away from myself, the more myself keeps following me (laughs) I end up back in those situations and then feeling terrible.
That is fine.
Sarah Marshall, ND: We see the exact same thing with diets. You know, it's like, I do put people on therapeutic diets that look restrictive, but it's a temporary pause to calm inflammation down and actually usually is actually a liberation in the world of like, you can have as much fat as you want. You can eat all the protein you want.
We're going to like super saturate your body with nutrition. We're just going to like pause on these other things. But my ultimate goal for myself and all my clients is that they can freely eat anything and everything that they want. They have a full breadth, but it's coming from a nourishing fulfilling place.
And we are liberating. All those conversations people have and I find. I don't even have to ask 'em very many questions about what's going on in their sex life because their food life and their sex life are those two, those two behaviors are very inner locked with each other. And when we suppress one area, we often will then crave more in another.
And there's like ways our body tries to seek pleasure. One of the conversations I've had with some of my clients who are diabetics is like, where are you not giving and yourself the true sweetness of life? Such that you're craving sweetness from all these other places and your body has a hard time, even metabolizing sugar and sweetness, and like getting into the metaphoric side of it.
And often start to see that men and women who have taken on deeper work around healing their sexuality and allowing themselves to be healthy, free sexual beings. And I can even just totally talk, speak from my own experience. It was about. 2020, 2016 is when I hit my like, okay, there's gotta be like, I've done all this work in my life in, you know, performance work.
And I'd done all this work and transformational education. And I did all this work in detox and homeopathy and herbal medicine and like all this. And there was this area of my life. It was still sitting over there. I mean, I had like paid off $75,000 in debt and had breakthroughs in money. And then there was sex. You know, and I would not have described myself as somebody who is sexually suppressed. And then I actually did a spiritual training, which I hope to have, have some of the teachers on this podcast, the Native American Quodoushka work. And I did a four day retreat on sacred shamonic sexuality. And learned about these ancient teachings and they talk about your sensuality, we're sentience beings as an integral part of our senses.
And when that cultivated from a healthy state standpoint, and you allow your true, like, what do you want to call it? Kundalini energy or your sexual energy, or I just say it's like life force energy. You can heal faster. You can move through so many things. Like it's one. I mean, literally we have sex and we create life. Fundamentally it is life force energy, and that can be wielded for good or evil, you know, it's like that can take us out of alignment or into alignment. And then in the last four or five years, it's been something I've continued and I've seen, I'd go to a workshop on spiritual sexuality and then have a breakthrough in my business or see other areas of my life so massively impacted. And a lot of it, what I witnessed. And I, I can't speak for my own experience, but what I witnessed in the men that would come through that process was this equal ownership of their sexuality. And yet they were the most nonthreatening men to be around. Like it seemingly was illogical how much more sexuality was present in their speaking, their way of being what they said mattered to them. They would talk about it. And these were the men I was the most comfortable around. Like I felt the most safe and I didn't even recognize how much as a woman. And it was, there's a coach and author, Alison Armstrong, you may have heard of, and she talks about how women's primal state, we just walk around wired for fear of our physicality, cause we're literally smaller and it's like some innate, you know, place in our being. And I would have argued that statement until I heard it and it hit me and I recognize the extent to which my entire life is organized around managing myself for threat and pretending I'm not doing that.
Ed Kennedy: And it's not something that, that men appreciate because we don't, it's not a visceral experience we have. And I recall Alison Armstrong showing that to me, and demonstrating and very clearly in the room that how many women have feared for their safety this month, this week, this day. In the last hour and to see so many women say yes, within the last hour, I have thought about am I safe here?
And, and, and the statistics are staggering in terms of sexual abuse and sexual assault. and. there's all these supposedly good men out there, but if there's that many women being assaulted there can't be all that many good men out there. And now I think there's a naivete about how an, a self there's, a justification rationalizing that men do about how they've behaved.
I did it. About that wasn't that bad. It wasn't, it wasn't that wasn't a problem, but it was. And until I really shut my mouth, over the last several years and really started listening to women, listening to my partner, my fiance, and really getting into her psyche around safety and how critical it is, as an experience of life that I just don't experience.
And to recognize that there is a fundamental process going on moment by moment for women for most women that I've never experienced. I've rarely ever felt vulnerable for my safety. In extreme circumstances have I ever felt like I was physically in danger and that's not even the same as the threat of sexual abuse. And sexual violence. That's totally different. I've never had that experience. but I've had a fear of my physical safety, but it's, I can count the number of times on my, on one hand, not, you know, countless experiences throughout the day,
Sarah Marshall, ND: in last week or two or today, or, yeah.
Ed Kennedy: And that's the, I mean, that's, that's where I see as one example, we are deceiving ourselves and deception and buying into stories about what has happened to us.
And the reality we must now be sentenced to because what happened to us or what we did, is what needs to get acknowledged and, and forgiven and unraveled and starting to address it, and it's very uncomfortable. I've found it to be extremely uncomfortable for men. And I've had men when I've shared this experience with them and I've said, yeah, we're basically all on a spectrum. There are no such thing as good men and bad. There are just men and we're on a continuum and we've all had sexual experiences where there was ambiguity. And a lot of men want to say no, no, no, no, no. There are bad men out there that do the bad stuff. I'm not one of them. And I, I disagree. I say we are on a spectrum and we all have a role to play in owning the collective trauma that men have had on women.
Whatever that looks like, whether it's just the simple and most innocent relationship between a father and a daughter about how she sees a man behave. In his li-, in her life, as she grows up a completely divorced of any sexual activity, all the way to, you know, college scenes where there's drugs and alcohol and there's a lot of conspicuous situations getting contrived so men can get what they want. and we're all on that continuum. And, and I've gotten many men very pissed off at me for even suggesting that they're in the same class as rapists and, and men who have conducted a sexual assault.
And I just think we all have to face that side of ourselves if we want to really level up in life. if you don't address those aspects and there may be very little to work on there. But oftentimes there's more than what you expect.
Sarah Marshall, ND: I've been curious that there's, this is such a topic we don't want to talk about.
You know, I mean, when the #metoo movement swept through social media, I appreciated that things were getting put into dialogue. You know, that there was this, this, the safety socially to start to express and share. And I, I know it's it, this is still one of our big taboos, but then there was like, I, my heart longed for the other half of the equation, because there's just as much pain and trauma in potentially discovering you were the person who may have caused harm in that way, as there is in the person recognizing, I mean, I've had my own wake up calls to things that one hand, I never interpreted it as any sort of an assault. And then when I actually did the healing work, I discovered I went unconscious in my, my body in the fight, flight, or freeze my body freezes.
And when I look back and I started to do the energetic work, the spiritual work of assessing, like was I really a choice? Was I actually in pleasure? Was I actually in alignment? There was a large number of moments where I could see that I just checked out and it was easier to deal and put on a smiley face at the end, then to actually speak up and say anything about what I wanted different or that I didn't want it at all. Now I do personally take responsibility for that because it's the kind of person I am. Like I say. And there's a few though that were well beyond that. The we're in the realm of like, if I chose to, I could consider it a sexual assault situation.
And then I got to work through my processing of that. And equally as a human being, my heart has gone out to the other half of the equation, but like, I don't even have language. Like what do we call, what do we say? Like, of course men get angry about that. Like, how was. How was that for you to face (inaudible)
Ed Kennedy: there was two flavors, to it as obviously men who have been the victims of sexual assault, but there's the majority of men are the perpetrators and there's an, either an even deeper and silent suffering. I don't, it's impossible to compare the two, but the private suffering that someone goes through is the most intense for that. It's it's one, whatever scale they have. So it's unfair to even put them alongside each other. Although if I was, I would say, yeah, the experience I've known with my partners in the past and know what they've gone through. Holy shit, the suffering that I've experienced as a, for guilt and shame for how I have behaved pales in comparison to the trauma that (inaudible) So I think, I think there is a way to kind of put them in the right perspective. That being said there is not necessarily an environment, a forum, a space where men can address: what have you done that you're not proud of? How have you behaved that you're carrying and can you take that arrow out? Can you drop that rock? Can you stop beating yourself with that stick that you did that that one time and is there a way to heal it privately with that person, with future partners? There are prescriptions to get this medicine going and it all comes back to acceptance and forgiveness.
So yes, I believe. That men are suffering with their choices, with their actions and what they've done to women. I think it's so unconscious and so easily pushed aside and denied. For the sake of looking good for the, for to save face and it, and it gets expressed. And even that, that retaliation gets expressed in even worse ways.
There's anger and justification and retaliation and, you know, well she was asking for it. And this is, and, and there's just so much visceral response to never admit that there was anything that I did that was wrong. I mean, that's fundamental to being a human, we will go to our graves to be right.
Sarah Marshall, ND: In so many areas, we'll do that. Absolutely. Yeah.
Ed Kennedy: And our righteousness will lead us to that suffering. That'll lead us down those (inaudible) . And it's funny because you'll, you'll see people in life. And they look like they have it all. They are healthy. They have, they say they have everything they want. They've got the white picket fence, the wife, and two kids, the retirement's fully funded. They drive a car they like. They go on, you know, one and a half vacations a year. And yet they are miserable; they're miserable, and you can see it in their eyes to see the suffering and, and that's something difficult to confront and it's, and it really, I can only take someone as far as I'm willing to go.
And I'm only able to take someone as far as they're willing to go. So I've got a certain runway of the work I've done, and I can take people as far as I've gone, but how willing a man is to really start to explore these conversations is the determining factor because there's no amount of availability I can be for men.
I can stand on top of the roof and shout about this. And I do, I am being on this talk and it's like, man, we need to think about this and we need to consider this and women we need your help, to understand and accept that part of us as well. But I can't get them any further than they're willing to go.
Sarah Marshall, ND: So when we look at like the tools, right, we've talked about acceptance and forgiveness, which I think conceptually we're like, yeah, of course. Obviously. But like what, like literally, like how do we do that? Like what.
What are the prescriptions? (inaudible)
Ed Kennedy: There's so many, like, that's, what's so great when you get, when you broaden your definition of, of medicine and healing from, you know, allopathic, traditional Western medicine that often leads to medication, and that's kind of, that's the blunt instrument that is out there medicate. And obviously there's a lot more to that, but when you broaden the definition of, of health and medicine, to what it is to be a human being and all that's available to us, there's so much going on psychologically. and spiritually that allows us to get access to forgiveness that doesn't involve medicating ourselves.
It doesn't involve us numbing ourselves out. Everything from writing prompts that I've had my clients do to write out the worst things they've ever done. I'm also, five years sober. And there's a obviously deep process in a 12 step program to work on your resentments, to work on your perpetrations on other people to go and restore your relationship with people and make things right.
So there's a lot of writing in those, those experiences you're writing out, what are the things you've done and just getting, just dealing with the truth. Whenever I work with men, I don't talk about what's right or wrong. I talk about what's true. To just deal with what's true. And write that down, write down just the truth, just the facts, just the experience and that can often start to loosen the grip and then there's processes to then forgive and go deeper and to start to affirm to yourself that you forgive yourself and I've got everything from, you know, guided meditations that help you walk through that to deep one-on-one work with men that I do. The most profound experience that I offer at my men's retreat is called "Men as Medicine." (Laughs)
But I believe that men are the medicine for men, and we are our own medicine and it is a very, unconventional way to process emotions. We're getting men in a room and we are putting on heavy metal music and we are getting them into states of emotional expression. They've never allowed themselves to have.
So we're letting them express anger in a way they've never had permission to express anger or letting them express sadness in a way they've never got to express sadness. I've seen men in those rooms break down in tears because they're finally acknowledging that they are devastated that they lost their partner.
Or they're devastated that their relationship ended and they're suffering over it because we put on that mask and we pretend like it's fine. But when I get men in those rooms, there is not one man who doesn't have at least one thing that they need to express in that viceral way. So there's techniques with groups that also work, and these are different, different types of medicine.
There's private work; there's group work; there's actual medicine there's... (laughs) There's Ayahuasca; there's Psilocybin that there's so many
Sarah Marshall, ND: There's ritual ceremonies, yeah.
Ed Kennedy: Ceremonies that will, will knock you on the side of your head with something you didn't think you were going in there for. You think you're going in for one thing, you think you're all you've gotten, you're all zenned out. You're so ready.
Sarah Marshall, ND: I'm here to experience the bliss of the universe,
Ed Kennedy: Yeah, I'm here to connect with the divine and the grandmother's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We got to start here in your life. And that has been, that's been my experience with plant medicine with Ayahuasca time and time again. and I've had, so those are just some of the things on the menu to prescribe and it's, it's important to do it intentionally.
It's important to do it with guidance. It's important to do with people that you trust and that people who are trustworthy. So it's... because we're dealing with things that can get unstable. We're dealing with people's mental health, with their emotional health and it's to be respected. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't go there.
We should, anybody who was listening, like if the, if the, if you hear that this is kind of the knock on the door, this is your knock. Yeah.
Sarah Marshall, ND: And I, you know, I mean, I, I. I have then very interested in what the sacred plants. I mean, I was trained as an herbalist in naturopathic school. So I've been working with plant medicine of all varying types and there's at one level, part of me says they're all sacred and particularly the, what I'm going to call entheogens, which are the plants that truly am like, there's a spirit relationship.
And many people experience that as. You know, the psychedelic realm.
I don't think it's an accident that, that medicine has surfaced the way it's surfacing right now. I mean, I know we went through a big period of LSD throughout, you know, the 1960s and early into the seventies. I've read a lot of books, you know, Michael Pollan's book on how to change your mind was transformational for me, because up until that point, I was pretty much a card carrying member of the drugs are bad and there's a better, more holistic way.
And even if they give you an access point, you're kind of spiritually cheating, you should do it the hard way. Like I had this whole thing about it, right?
Ed Kennedy: What a trick from the ego to keep you to keep you from doing the work
Sarah Marshall, ND: Totally! And, and, I I've heard the knock and I've sat in ceremony and it has been some of the most, profound healing work I've ever done.
And I mean, particularly I actually, what the reason I was called to it was because of all of the healing I had done all of the homeopathy, all of the diet work, all of the transformational work, my relationship to myself and sexuality was, was I could see there was a pattern that kept happening where I kept recreating the circumstances of victimhood. And I mean, I know, you know, me and many of my listeners probably get a sense. Me and victim hood are not usually in the same sentence. I am like confident in and it kept showing up and I literally was like, what is it going to take? And the universe was like, Ayahuasca.
And I was like, what else is it going to take?
What else you got in ceremony? I was like, no, I don't do drugs. Like I, in that world, that's how it was for me. And it was Michael Pollan's book that he brought the science along with the history, along with he, I mean, he just so eloquently shared his own experiences.
It was so profound and I literally was in an... I altered just from that witnessing and then have, you know, been pursuing my own journey work ever since. And, and it was the grandmother Ayahuasca that sat me down and literally, now, this was, this was six sets in and a lot of deep work, but she said you've never been raped.
There's no such thing as being a victim. You're a conscious spirit that chose to be here. And your choice was when you chose to numb out, when you chose to check out. Now, this is not an abdication of any actions at all, but for me, my profound healing happened when I got to own that event all the way down to the origins of it and take complete authentic responsibility for it.
And it was like my DNA alter; my way of life altered.
Ed Kennedy: I still appreciate you sharing that because you're touching on, I think what is one of the deeper parts of ownership and responsibility is that it's not necessarily the truth that you know, your responsible, but if you want power, responsibility is where you start.
You know, if you want a hundred percent power, take a hundred percent responsibility, even if it's for the aspect of your behavior, not where you saw you went off or you deviated, or you weren't true to yourself or you didn't speak up. That is where you can source your own power, because what is done is done, what has happened has happened.
But when you take responsibility for where you were in the moment, that's where power starts flooding into your life. And that's where you can start taking more radical actions to heal yourself. I love what's happening in the. Community for plant medicines and the progression that we're seeing, and it is still so foreign to so many, so controversial, so taboo and I really hope that people can start to, just take a step back and look at what are the results what's happening. Ayahuasca... (inaudible)
Sarah Marshall, ND: And there's good research that's actually now, I mean, there's, that was one of my favorite things about. "How to change your mind?" Michael Pollan's book was he talked about the laws and how the laws, basically they cut off funding and all the funding ran out in 1975.
That's how they controlled and ended the research. And then some laws opened up in 2005 where they could go back in the, I can't remember whether it was Stanford or Harvard, but one of the main medical schools, they were allowed to start analyzing the previous research. So they could go back to the old research and analyze it and create metadata.
And that happened for a while. And then there was something else that happened in 2015 and like, I mean, I was interviewing with a clinic here in Salt Lake city that was looking into being one of the clinics for the MAPS program for the phase three trial of treating PTSD with MDMA. And that's a lot of letters, but, you know, helping us heal trauma with a synthetic substance, but one that's been very potentized to a way that makes a huge difference in healing, heart work and, and rearranging how our brain operates and like the, the FMR is.
FMRIs that are being done with the silicide bum studies and the MDMA studies. I mean, I'm a doctor, but I'm fascinated. It was like, we're literally seeing how we can alter (inaudible)
Ed Kennedy: yeah. Look at the brain. Look at the neural pathways. Look at the (inaudible) that's happening when we put ourselves in these altered States and, and, you know, for anybody who's concerned that plant medicines are drugs, when you try them, you'll realize that if you're in the right setting and you're in the right environment and it's respected, it will treat you in such a way that you will not necessarily be totally convinced that you should ever do it again. (laughing)
Sarah Marshall, ND: Exactly.
Ed Kennedy: There have been many times when I've sat in ceremony and the first dose is coming on. And I think my mind says to myself, Why are you doing this? This is a terrible idea.
Sarah Marshall, ND: The dumbest idea I've ever had. Yeah.
(Inaudible) Ed Kennedy: pleasant, if it's the right context. And that's why context is everything. Yes you can take those substances in non- ceremonial, non- ritual environments. And it's the same kind of thing as using a drug or alcohol. And that's the same way that if you could use alcohol in a way to connect, it's actually a possibility. So it's really not about the substance. It's about the context.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. I mean, I work with people and their relationship to food and move them into a place like, you know, I've actually worked it out now, how to remain at my top level of health while in keeping a certain quota of grilled cheese sandwiches and ice cream.
Because they bring me, so my inner child is so happy, that is critical for what my stance of a dream life includes those things, but it's in the balance and in the intentionality, it's, I'm feeding my inner child and I'm loving myself and I'm experiencing the joy of it. And I have a 39-year-old cast iron pan that's as old as I am that my mother gave to me when I went to college.
And if you put like pasture raise butter and homemade bread, and this really artisan cheddar cheese. Okay. Yeah. Like I'm like, into it. Right. But that's what I say is to like devour the goodness of life. That's actually what we're here for, like in the ayahuasca. Nope. The other one, Quodoushka work with the, spiritual sexuality, one of the things they talked about is like that we really could, as human beings be moving into a phase where what it means to be a human being is about pleasure, but not that cheap junk food pleasure driven thing that was, is really actually about numbing out and checking out and not feeling, but like ecstasy in those heightened spaces.
And, and I also just want to put in, you know, You and I have both explored with these sacred plants and there's breath work that you can get access to it. There's exercise. I mean like a lot of extreme sport athletes. I live in salt Lake city and a lot of my friends are some pretty rocking extreme skiers and mountaineers and climbers.
And the other area I've studied a lot is flow state. Like the mental capacity we have to drop into this particular way. And they train the Navy seals in it. It's how we accomplish high performance.
Ed Kennedy: Yeah. If you get your brainwaves at the right frequency, you can produce so much more and create so much more newly than in other states.
And in fact, in related to breathwork, my men's retreat also includes certified Wim Hof breathwork training because it is. You don't need to take medicine. You're you're shot out of your body and
Sarah Marshall, ND: Our bodies are capable, yeah.
Ed Kennedy: just by using your breath. I want to come back to the ayahuasca piece cause I actually wrote a poem after one of my ceremonies that relates to healing.
So can I read it to you?
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yes. Do.
Ed Kennedy: Cool. Thank you so much. I relish every opportunity to, to share this because it is it's it's it was such a profound experience for me. And, you know, this was after several sittings with ayahuasca, but it was really about the healing I had to do with myself and my relationship with spirit or the universe or divine, however you choose to accept that. And I don't necessarily think that you have to believe in any of that to get the full benefit of these kinds of experiences. It's just often one of the side effects as you start getting connected to the universe a lot more. So this is called "A Beautiful Unfolding."
I'm drenched in cheap perfume and fake jewelry at the abandoned carnival of my failed attemps to become you. Amusing and abusing my own divine self. I drank from your cup, but took credit for the water, I made a small shrine, but refused to put myself on the altar. I've stolen your ideas without sharing the wealth, which is why I use summoned me to restore me to health.
This man is sick. You proclaim. He is clearly insane. He thinks he's not from where we all came. What I will not get over is the love that I found when you stripped me naked and placed me on the ground. So I cried all my joy and I laughed all my sorrow. I suppose I can die now and see you tomorrow.
Sarah Marshall, ND: That's awesome. I got chills.
Ed Kennedy: It was profound, a profound realization. And that's me having conversation with God. I'm just really seeing how I had kept myself so distracted, you know, I've amused and abused my own divine self. Is such a powerful realization for me that I've been so busy and we are so busy, amusing ourselves and abusing ourselves and we're abusing and amusing this really divine or sacred, or at least something we should respect, which is the fact that we're even alive and that we might be squandering that with the level of suffering that we tolerate in our own lives. So that's where there's just so much opportunity to do this work and that's, that's the invitation, whatever that looks like.
Or however that shows up in your particular set of circumstances, there's often some intuition that says, this is the subject matter for me, or this is the arena where it shows up most profoundly. Thanks for letting me share that.
Oh my gosh. Thanks for being so willing to just pour into this. It's been really awesome.
Yeah. It's I mean, it's such a gift to be able to, to have this conversation. I hope it's a value to people because it's, it's been a very private and personal journey for me, but it's also becoming more public and it's bigger. It's important. the, the state of our world whether you look at that at the level of society or just an individual and their relationship with their partners and their children, whatever you, however you would define your world is under a significant amount of stress.
And strain, and you can see the suffering that's out there. So we have to be able to look into the darker sides, the darker recesses of our psyche, of our mind, of our hearts, because of the deeper we go, the further we can go. is what I always tell my clients, the deeper you go, the further you can go.
And if you want to go far, you're going to need to go deep. You're going to need, if you want to reach these higher states of not just synthetic results, like millions of dollars and be completely (inaudible) , but it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to live a fulfilled life. And I am for. Men in particular, but all people I'm not dying with regrets.
I want people to get to the conclusion of their life, the last chapter of their life and see that they leveled up as many times as they could. And they experienced that kind of transcendence into a person they never really thought they could be, even if they wanted it. So that's why this is so important to have this conversation.
So appreciate, appreciative of you for having this forum.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah, it's it fit right in and, you know, and is I got to assess the conversations that we had in season one and just launching the project and even engaging this conversation about what does it mean to Heal and what does it take to Heal? What showed up right there you get into in season two?
And I didn't even share this with you is, is what's unsaid. What do we not talk about? What are the things that we don't, you know, that, that make us uncomfortable in those ways and you just walked right into my intention perfectly. So thank you for fulfilling on that.
Totally.
And I mean, there were many times throughout this conversation that even hearing you as one man acknowledging and being willing to put himself out there to do the work, to heal at that level, it was like it completed something for me.
Like I, there was a point early on in this, that like emotion left my body. I felt something got acknowledged, you know? And, and thank you for that. And thank you for sharing that. And I can imagine this episode might be a little bit to swallow for some people and that's okay. And that. I echo that trust your intuition and trust your guidance and find your tribe or find your counselors, coaches, partners, healers, practitioners. Like I've had some people who've come to me and they're like, well, I just feel like I should be able to do it myself. Like we have this myth that like, you're better if you did it on your own, but
Ed Kennedy: Yeah
Sarah Marshall, ND: what it is to be a human being in my world is all about how we reflect each other and how we contribute. Like the way I've put it as you can't, you can't see the inside of your own eyeballs. Ya need another person to do that. And that that's a great gift. I have my own naturopath, coach chiropractor, acupuncturist. I have the people I've hired in my life is my support team. I don't even think, I mean, I have a lot of inner wisdom and a lot of inner intuition. I do trust my heart and myself in that way, but I do it in community. And so thank you.
Ed Kennedy: It's so vital because if this is one of the possible truths about reality that we find ourselves in as human beings is that suffering is generated through the separation. of ourselves from another person, from reality, from, from our lives, that set feeling separate.
And that idea that I should be able to do it on myself is just another reaffirmation that I am separate from you. I am separate from my life. I am separate from the circumstances around me when the reality is we are completely integrated. You are not separate from all these other aspects of life.
You are part of life. You are life itself. Your life happening. There's a happening around you and it's life. And that's what you get to participate in and experience the highs and the lows, so maybe one just final statement to any of the women who are listening to this podcast is if I could speak on behalf of all men who have done this work, or at least willing to contemplate doing this work is that we are sorry.
We are sorry for what we have done. And we know that what we did wasn't right. Deep down. We know it and deep down, even to ourselves, we wish we could really confront the damage we've caused. Some men have, more men will, and I'm convinced of that. the work that's happening in the world right now is allowing us to see these aspects of ourselves.
And I think there is an opportunity for the, for the, the complimentary brotherhood of the #metoo movement to come out in full force. And I think that's something that I'm certainly passionate about. And many other men that I've worked with are passionate about and see as necessary. So we might not, we might be scattered throughout the world, but we are out there.
We do want to do this work. We don't do it. Perfect. I don't do it perfect every time. It's a constant journey. But there is, it is there. The potential for that forgiveness is there. So that, that's what I would want to just kind of close with bringing it full circle to the sexual expression is, is that.
Sarah Marshall, ND: That's beautiful.
And thank you. And the listeners can't see my tears, but I totally welled up when you said that. So, appreciate you so much, Ed. I appreciate our friendship and our partnership and being people out there making a difference. Thank you for all you've contributed and, and here today.
Ed Kennedy: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Absolutely. All right, until next time. (music)
Thanks to today's guest Ed Kennedy for incredible strength and vulnerability, showing us what it can be to be a man. For a full transcript and all the resources for today's show, visit SarahMarshallND.com/podcast. You can learn more about finding your own healing journey by going to SarahMarshallND.com or following me on Instagram at @SarahMarshallND. Special thanks to our music composer, Roddy Nikpour, and our editor Kendra Vicken. We'll see you next time.