Ed Kennedy on Male Depression and Accomplishment
On today's episode, acclaimed guest Ed Kennedy returns to us yet again, to talk about healing men. This time beyond the sexualization of women. He digs into the roots of male depression and the addiction of accomplishment.
Referenced in Show
Ed’s Bio
Ed Kennedy is an income and abundance coach with ten years’ experience leading transformational seminars to thousands of participants around the world. Through private coaching Ed specializes in empowering women to achieve their highest earning potential.
Ed has helped build several multi-million-dollar businesses including contributing to a $1.14 billion dollar valuation and sale of a global software company.
For more information join his monthly webinar for entrepreneurs - Badass Business Builders which is hosted on the 3rd Wednesday of every month.
Read some of Ed’s recent articles & training.
Follow Ed on Instagram.
Full Transcript
Sarah Marshall, ND: Welcome to Heal. On today's episode, acclaimed guest Ed Kennedy returns to us yet again, to talk about healing men. This time beyond the sexualization of women. He digs into the roots of male depression and the addiction of accomplishment. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Marshall.
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Sarah Marshall, ND: Welcome back to Heal Ed Kennedy. This is our second episode together, which is super exciting. You, whether we knew we were going to or not, we hit the nail on the head last time in the episode, it was healing men sex in each other. And Holy moly, I got so many ‘powerful’, ‘moved’, ‘favorite episode ever’, ‘that was incredible’, ‘changed my life’, messages after that episode, so thank you for your contribution in that.
Ed Kennedy: You're welcome. I'm honored that people listened and received what can be often a very heavy topic about men and sex and everything that goes with that dynamic. So I'm so pleased. I won't try to top it. We'll just go where we need to go…
Sarah Marshall, ND: No, exactly. Now that I've set the expectations really high. No. So it really is just. One of the things we're doing in season four of Heal is revisiting some of the powerful topics that made a difference for people and maybe going further taking, you know, now what having had that initial conversation.
And it doesn't mean that that's all we talk about here today, but when you and I touched base about this episode a couple of weeks ago, you know, one of the things that I got present to was, there's I'll, I'll say it from my side of the fence, which is the female side of the fence. The woman's side of the fence is in my world I feel like as a 40 year old woman raised by a feminist, there's been a lot of conversations in my life about women's groups and people who specialize in women's support. And there's lots of conversations for women's health and women's doctoring. Now I'm actually aware statistically of the disparity of medical attention to women and things that I'm not really talking about that I'm just saying, like, in a general sense in my world, there are these things and it's like, there's not an equal and opposite counterpoint for each one of those for men. And like, my boyfriend is looking at that and I've had some other men in my life that are like, I joined a men's group.
I never thought in a million freaking years, I would ever do something like that. I'd never even dawned on me and they've been getting a lot of value out of it. And so. What you shared with me about where you are now in life, in this next transition, which I'll have you put your own words to it, I think is a great place for us to start the conversation of like, what else do men need? Could they do to even just hear another man say, yeah, me too, bro. This is what I'm dealing with. I think is also powerful.
Ed Kennedy: Yeah, the walls between ourselves and the men in our life are usually quite thick. And oftentimes men experience more safety and security and being able to confide in women, you know, they, they know that women appreciate when they share, if there's something that they're struggling with, but there is a threat to masculinity when they were approached with the opportunity to disclose to another man that we are not doing well. And even as someone who's led men's work, I'm susceptible to it. It's nothing, nothing is handled in that sense. I am very susceptible to wanting to isolate and hide from myself, but also from others that I'm struggling. And that's exactly what I did even just recently. And it's, it's a, it's a very common issue among genders and I think all human beings deal with this, but the flavor of how men deal with it is even more devastating and even stronger. So, yeah, I do because of COVID I chose to leave my corporate career and, you know, I was leading men's retreats and still consulting in my technology industry so I stepped away from an identity that I had been reinforcing for 10 years and was feeding me a lot of self-worth. You know, I, I had a deep sense of self worth with my career identity. I was well known. I was well paid. I was well-respected. And then I said, I don't want to do that anymore. So I go into this new environment where all of my credentials and expertise and cache means absolutely nothing. And so I didn't recognize how much my own sense of self worth would be affected by making that choice. My higher self made the choice. I can't work these hours. I don't, this is not in alignment. I'm going to leave and chart my own path. It was from a state of power, but the consequence of what my ego is now done with that has been run a muck and so bad, bad habits, bad behaviors start showing up again and I don't want to tell people that. I don't want to tell people that, you know, I started smoking tobacco. I don't want to admit that. I don't want to admit that I've been compulsively playing a video game when I'm stressed. I don't want to admit that I've gotten out of the habits and routines that used to give me a lot of strength. I'm embarrassed that like I'm someone who's supposed to look a certain way and I'm not even living up to my own standards that I preach in my men's work.
So it's just been this experience of falling from grace. And thankfully the men that I have led and trained and work with called me out and said, you were there for us, what the hell are you doing? Why are you not bringing yourself to us? Like you ask us to do in exchange. So it's been really powerful to get reconnected to that and start really small, start from a place of humility. Because my capacity to trust my own word has been damaged. Like I've damaged my own integrity because I've been so inconsistent with who I say I am. So I'm having to rebuild trust in my own word over time. So I'm starting small.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Got it. Totally like, and I mean, What I'm present to right now in the conversation is I, do I want to target this towards a conversation about men or the even we can even broaden a little bit of like the masculine, because there is an element where we all have our feminine and our masculine balance in each of us and even from man, to man and woman to woman, there's different balances where some women are very feminine women and some women they thrive. I, and I've kind of been on either side of it outwardly my physical expression has been more in the feminine side, but I've done a lot of things that are deemed more in the masculine qualities of the leadership roles I've been in, in the way I managed my time and how logically statistically goal-oriented and since I've stopped being in those roles this last year or two years of my life, I've been intentionally embracing more of allowing a flow of time, setting an intention that I'm gonna accomplish a few things, but not really knowing how or when I'm going to do it, letting myself tinker wander about, I managed to do all kinds of things around the house when I'm not trying to get things done around the house.
And then as soon as I'm like, I'm going to clean out my closets, which I've been saying for like, I think a month and a half now since the beginning of January. Not happening, but then I will like clean the baseboards while I'm talking to my mom. Cause it's just sort of comes from this. What I've been taught is a more feminine diffuse awareness space of just sort of noticing something and then handling it but I didn't know I was going to clean the baseboards that morning. It wasn't on my to-do list. I didn't have it in an action item. Right. So those have been energies I've been moving through. And I want to make sure that this conversation is heard from the place of contribution and it's not an us versus them. Men have it, worse women have it worse kind of a thing, because like you said, Both sides of the, of the gender or sex conversation, however we self-identify and the whole spectrum in between we can flow in and out of these different roles in these different spaces in our life. And it matters to me as a woman who loves men and watches the men in my life suffer. And for me, it looks like. When I'm dealing with something, I go to my sister or I go to my girlfriend's or I go to my mom. I even go to many men in my life who provide a great space for me. But then when I talked to the like boyfriends and good friends of mine, and I'm like, well, just go talk to your buddy about this. I mean, don't you guys in there looked at me like, that's the weirdest idea ever? They're like, no, we don't talk like no ever. And it's like, to me, that's just a blind spot. Cause then like what , well, what do you mean you have like all these great... I know I talked to him and they're like, yeah, you can talk to him, but I can't talk to him and so that's like crazy.
Ed Kennedy: It's such a threat. There's such a threat to the masculine identity. And so let's, let's get some definitions on the table. So we've got, we've got sex, you know, we have biological anatomical perspectives on, on gender, but gender is not sex. Male, female being born, a man or being born a female, a male or female is very distinct than gender of being male, female it's just such a distinct conversation. And yet we have grafted onto the cultural phenomenon of men and women, the biological constraints of our sex parts. We've said that men have testosterone, men have a penis. Women, you know, there's just these distinctions that are on the physical plane, that we then graft onto a cultural phenomenon called men and women.
And in fact, the idea that even that binary approach is so constraining from the lived experience of being human. There are times when I have been alive and present in my life where I haven't necessarily identified with my gender. I haven't necessarily, now I haven't consciously said I am not a man, but there just was no presence of being a man or a woman. I was just, I was just there. And I think what you're pointing to is that notion that masculinity and femininity are a space. It's a perspective. It's a context. It's a way of looking at life. It's a way of interacting with life that has nothing to do with sex identity. It has nothing to do with any of that.
And I say why? I would say why men are suffering is that they have constrained themselves and been constrained by what society says a man is supposed to look like. And the threat sharing with other men that we are struggling is a threat to that core identity of what a man is supposed to look like. And it runs so deep and so subconscious that even, so unlike me, who's done this work for 10 freaking years can't help, but resist. I don't want to pick up the phone. I don't want to admit I'm struggling. I would rather pretend like everything's okay. Now I think that women do that as well, but I don't think it's in the same, I don't know if it's as common in the way that men display that behavior. So if anything, what I've been trying to teach for the last several years is giving men permission to access the feminine. Because it's so absent, there's just no permission to experience that kind of flow integrated into life and that you can have strong emotions. Anger and frustration are not the two emotions that are available to men. We have the whole spectrum available and we've denied. We've denied ourselves, even experiencing joy, silliness, play, fun, exuberance, ecstasy, so many; men have denied themselves the permission to experience those feelings. And there, and because it's a threat to their identity and they will lose status, lose stature and it's not just men that reinforce this. There is a community of women that reinforce what a man is supposed to look like as well. So both, both we all have play a role in continuing to reinforce the gender roles and stereotypes that we think are appropriate and, you know, on the, on the flip side, I think there are men who have never been given permission and it's never been safe to be masculine.
They've never given themselves permission to do it. And if, if anything, what I'm seeing in the men's groups that are most common is they're on the extremes. Where there's either a men's group where men are joining so they are given permission to access their feminine or they're joining a men's group that makes them a man, that gives them permission to finally be a man and an exhibit the masculine identity. And I guess I've tried to walk the line, right? I've tried to be appropriate, for where men are because some men are coming in and they are the stereotypical machismo, masculine guy who has no problems you know, is, is getting lots of sex from many sex partners and is financially successful and doesn't need anyone, thank you very much. And I've got to find a way like water to get into his heart. You know, I've got to find where the wound is so that he can actually open up and feel feelings again. Allow himself to feel feelings. And then there's other men who are very happy to share their feelings, but they can't make a commitment to get out of a paper bag.
You know, they can't make a commitment to get out of bed at a certain time and they have no relationship to their word. And so they do need more structure and they've benefited from structure. So in that sense, I try to play with the toolkit of feminine and masculine to empower people. And I try to look beyond what is a man and allow each man to create what does it look like for you to be a man in your life and not by my standard, not by society standard, not by your father standard. What does it look like for you to be the man you've always wanted to be in your life? So that's, and that's what we struggle with.
Sarah Marshall, ND: I can see, I mean, I can map it onto myself, my own spaces of life where pushing into and getting held accountable for that more structural piece, giving my word, honoring my word building that muscle was one of the greatest things that happened to me. And I had come from a realm where before that almost all of my tools for empowerment came from an emotional intuitive place, but I didn't have that structural piece. So I kind of felt like I just had to wander around in the dark, lost in my emotions and it wasn't like I kind of got axed and then I went sort of all the way to an extreme. And now I feel like in my life, I'm moving back towards the more emotionally expressive, feminine, a little looser control on things.
And I, but I already have that. I know those tools of accountability, responsibility at giving my word, knowing how to honor my word, forcing myself, quite frankly, sometimes to just do what I said I was going to do no matter how I feel about it. And it, and it's been this dance in my life through different decades, for whatever reason, for me, it always seems to be like 10 years of this. And then 10 years of that, 10 years of this, some people had seven years. Some people would say for me, it's been 10 and I turned, you know, I don't know if it was because I was born on 1980 on the Eve of a decade, right but I just have fit into that. So I can tell you what the eighties were like. The nineties were like, you know, now and turning 40 last summer, it's been this, like, what is the balance for me?
And I notice I run my own business. I'm building a bigger platform to make a difference for people. I have a very strong career organizational productivity life around me. And what I noticed, and you might be able to speak to this is that runs headlong into, into intimacy and connection with my boyfriend.
Like I come out of work, which is a door into the kitchen and he's in his office downstairs. And I don't want to necessarily give up where I'm at in my head to become his girlfriend again. And we've, we don't connect like something doesn't and then I don't love the version of him I get in those moments either where in my experience, he will default to the playful little boy when met with the doctor who just walked out of her practice and it drives me, CRAZY!
Ed Kennedy: Where maybe, or maybe what you're looking for in intimacy is the polarity to shift. You're looking for the polarity to shift back to a space of feminine and masculine and allowing, because in your intimacy, you're looking for that kind of an experience you're looking to be held, nurtured, taken care of, adored, you're looking for the comfort and the arms around you, not you putting your arms around him.
Sarah Marshall, ND: And I noticed though that the doctor who I'm going to guess many aspects is more of the masculine. I have my mini version of my inner ego, man doesn't want to tell anybody I need a hug. I'm like, no, I'm fucking fine. I got this. I'm like, so how was your day what'd you do today? What have you accomplished?
Ed Kennedy: Run me through your to-do list
Sarah Marshall, ND: and it just ruins the rest of the evening...
Ed Kennedy: Man, I bet he gets, I bet he get so aroused. Tell me what you did on your to-do list today, baby. And so it's really, I mean, I can do you one better because my fiance and I own our business together. So we're in opposite rooms in the same house, working on the same business. And then we come out and meet each other and it is something that we have to give space for because I think, I think exactly the same way where we can kind of be wired to a certain frame of productivity, which, I mean, we have never tested at scale, having the feminine lead capitalism. We've always had capitalism wrapped up in masculine identity. Just the whole patriarchal structure of how you even structure an organization. How you think about profit motive, how you thinking about winning versus losing it's all inside of a masculine framework. And it's not to say we should abandon it entirely, but we haven't allowed there to be an opportunity to practice balancing it with the feminine. I think some organizations, some cultures, some teams are starting to embrace this and have made strides, but it's not necessarily something that's fully understood because in the masculine framing, it is seen as a threat. Anything that, that, I mean, so love says I will let you off. Love says you don't have to pay me back. Love says, I forgive you. Love just seeps through all of the boundaries and walls that we've put up to embrace who you really are. And I think that's the power of the feminine. It's the deep connection to love itself. And that's offered to the world through the feminine experience. And if you look in the, in the framing of a woman, that's oftentimes where that comes from being caring, thoughtful, considerate, it actually leads to the, if the attempt to give love to another, we've never tried that in business. We can barely even do it in relationships. You know, we never, we, we, it's such a threat to protecting what we think we need to hide from others. So if any of us, if I have something I'm hiding from myself and you come along and accept me 100% for who I am.
And that's a threat that's dangerous. I might actually have to give that up. I might actually have to melt inside of that and be taken care of. And there have been moments where my fiance Morgan has been the one holding me, you know, has been the one that has held me in my time of pain. And that is a space that I think many men are terrified of.
Because again, they're, they're afraid that they're going to lose some sense of identity. They would never want people in their life to know that they were in a state of weakness. And I think that's, we're just missing out on so many opportunities there to actually be more effective and more productive.
You know, we spend so much energy protecting what we're afraid that we don't want people to know about ourselves or that we're ashamed of, or that we're not doing well with. We put so much time and energy into protecting that, that if we were able to connect with other men and say, this is how it is, this is how I feel about it.
What do you have to say? We would actually be back on the court, performing at a higher level quicker. That's what I see with all of my clients. That's exactly what happens. They come to me with their shins bruised and their elbows bruised from having gone and taken some risk. And I love them. I give them what they're, what they need. But I still hold them to a high standard. And it's, it is it is feels like a tight rope walk at times.
Sarah Marshall, ND: So, what are some of the access points like let's start with, for men who might be listening to this and being able to see some of themselves in what you're sharing, but it's like, cause I think also what I've heard from men in my life is they can't just go to any guy in their life because some of those guys see the vulnerability or whatever, and their threat mechanisms go off and they shame or joke their way through that instead of dealing with whatever it actually is. So like ha what do you, you know, I don't know that that's the game like, Oh yeah, just go to your best buddy and then open up and see how he handles it. It might not be the safest way to do this. So what do you see?
Ed Kennedy: So, I mean, there's things that you can do within yourself that will, that will trick your brain into thinking that you're better than you are, and that can help give you some courage and some confidence. And oftentimes we have to go back down to the physical plane. We have to go back down to our sex biology and get connected to that. Should help give us confidence. And what I specifically mean is, even just right now, I'm on a habit of walking every morning for one mile before I do anything else. And I'm doing one push-up for every day of the month. So, you know, I, if it's, you know, I'm on day 30, I do 30 pushups. And you'll kind of build up to that. Those types of daily disciplines can really help reinforce and trick your brain into thinking that you're better than you really are.
I mean, ultimately me walking a mile every day and doing a pushup every day is not going to substantially improve my health and wellbeing, but the mental clarity can come a lot faster. So that is something you do have control over to a certain. Degree, you can make a commitment and oftentimes it does help to make a commitment to another person to make that change and that's exactly what I did with one of the men in my life. We did talk about what I'm struggling with. We did talk about this sense of loss of identity. You know, the sense of anxiety. Like, I, I haven't been clinically diagnosed with anxiety, but man, do I have the symptoms. Like I am riding anxiety on a daily basis and it kind of kept, captures me and I feel like I've lost ground on where I used to be, so there's a sense of loss there. But just walking every day and doing a pushup has altered has given me some power back in my own life because it's something I said I would do. It's something someone else is expecting me to do. And when I do it, I feel better even though the pure output isn't necessarily gonna have me drop 30 pounds.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. And there's actually good neuroscience to this. And there's a, there's a whole series of actual research backing up to for all of us, male, female, and every desired expression of that in between, is one thing I think of is a book I read called The Spirit of Kaizen. And Kaizen is an idea that I heard is encapsulated in atomic habits, which is another book a lot of people are familiar with. And in Kaizen is a Japanese concept of very tiny changes adds up to a substantial shift in your life. So it’s just like, and the idea is to actually choose something that is small enough, your brain thinks that's ridiculous that’s A won't make any difference and B that's so tiny and easy, okay, fine. The idea is actually to choose something that doesn't trigger any of the survival stress mechanisms of your brain. You want to be under that. So I love that. Like we, there was one example in the book that talked about this guy was a coach coming from Kaizen, with someone who had, you know, really needed to lose weight, always ate out at restaurants was very successful. So he never ate at home and he just had these rich meals all the time. And he went into his doctor and his doctor's like, you are a walking, talking coronary artery problem. You got to do something about it or you're going to drop dead. And so they started with, when he gets his meal, take one bite of food and set it off to the side and leave it there, any everything else and it was for like a week. And then the second week, two bites of food. And eventually over a long period of time, it became, he would literally tell the server to package up half the serving and a, to go box before it ever got to his plate. And then he would just eat what was on his plate, but that was like way down the line and it happened and he ended up losing 35 pounds. He dropped his cholesterol levels just from portion control in this one area. And, but it was, the idea is to actually have part of your brain be like, that's ridiculous, but there's some patterning that starts to happen off of it. So like the one push-up a day, you know, I like the days of the month cause you get to start back over.
Ed Kennedy: Yeah. And it kind of builds up and then resets. And I'm trying it, we'll see. I mean, it's still early now, so, and, and so that's one side of the equation. I think you're, you're nailing it because we, it is tricking my brain to think like, how can I possibly make an excuse not to do that? There are some happy accidents that happen as a result of me doing this because mentally I've shifted, even though the results in my physical health and wellbeing haven't materialized yet there's less temptation to eat sugar. There's less temptation to indulge in food that I know doesn't work because I don't want to lose the little progress I’ve made. What was even the point of walking or doing any that's not now, and that shows up as inconsistent. And so there's less resistance to letting that go. Whereas before I was running to those substances to soothe my stress.
So the other side of that equation for men to get started with is to eliminate stimulus and eliminate distractions. So the most popular one that I kind of recommend all the time is abstained from consuming porn or abstained from masturbation or both that, that is a, it's a very common pattern that when men are stressed, they masturbate, it's a very common connection because there's an immediate relief and release. So there's a payoff and it's something that you can actually go and do in 10 or 15 minutes or less or less, you know? So it's something that doesn't take a lot of time. So it's oftentimes when there's high stress levels, that's a very common way to soothe yourself. So claiming power back in that area, it can be very, very powerful.
And also just evaluating other distractions. And it's, it might seem less salacious, but they're all just substances. It could be video games, social media, television, it can be, you know, just habits and routines and, and I do diagnose, or I do recommend atomic habits to my clients. And we do look at eliminating the negative, you know, so taking out the, a habit that you're wanting to get rid of and replacing it with something that's positive.
So I've done both and that's a place to start where it's less threatening than to get on the phone and talk about how you're doing because you have a victory to share. That doesn't get you off the hook from actually disclosing what you're actually dealing with and, and so it's more of a stabilizing factor.
It's not necessarily going to be going to carry you across the finish line. So, I mean, ultimately at, at a certain point, men need to take the risk of looking bad because what they're going to find as I found every single time where I've had a conversation with a man I trust who knows me, when I disclose what I'm actually dealing with in plain clear terms, I am never met with judgment. It's such a fallacy and it's, and that's why it's so insane. We're so afraid of losing our identity as a man. But when we speak to men that we trust and that we care about, and that care about us, I have never been met with judgment. And even if I have felt like I've been judged it's normally because that man is trying to kick my ass into gear and is saying, what are you doing? That's ridiculous. Get back on track. Like you're way better than this, but even that's love coming through the phone or through the conversation. So at a certain point, you've got to take the risk. And you've gotta be able to articulate what it is you're actually dealing with because on the surface it looks like my symptoms are, I'm really stressed out, I'm, I'm working really hard, I've gained weight, but what I can see further down inside of me is a loss of identity. I'm not who I used to be and I'm like feeling lost and you know, the stress of the pandemic and the stress of having a young business that doesn't currently isn't cashflow positive is one that makes me feel like I'm not good enough because I've had so much of my identity tied up in my income. So it's that, that I have to actually be able to share with people I feel like I'm a failure because I'm not making enough money and to see how much that runs my life iIs upsetting and to see how hard wired that is.
And for men that is often a top one, if they can't, if you can't find it attractive partner, and if you can't make enough money, you are not good enough. You are not a man. So the ability to attract a mate and the ability to make and make enough money to cover an entire household are our standards that we have for what it means to be a man. So even I, as someone who does men's work falls short of that I can fall into I'm not good enough.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yup. And so what about that piece of articulating what's really going on? Cause you know, I'm on the girlfriend, female friend side of this equation and I run into some of my guy, friends who will come to a confided me, I'm a safe space, I'm a doctor and have a lot of emotional intelligence and I'm just somebody that people come to a lot, but I will like, they're like, I'm stressed, I'm dealing with all this and I'll start to get into it.
And I'm like, well, what's really going on? And they, it's like the dumbest part... They're like, what do you mean what's really going on? Or I'm like, okay, well, yeah, but like, how do you feel about that? And they're like, I don't know. Pissed. And it's just like, there's not. So I don't actually know... What are the tools? Do you have any ideas or thoughts about how to help someone start to be able to get into a bit more self-reflective space? I know how I do it, but I do it through communication. I get on the phone with somebody and I talk to them in the more I talk to them, I wander my way down to the root issue. It just happens naturally.
But what I've heard is that's a more feminine trait, not women trait, but femininity of expressing myself until I solve whatever the thing is, that is not how many men operate. What I've heard is that for men, they think about it and only say it when they're clear about what there is to say. And so like, if someone doesn't know how to get clear, how do they get clear?
Ed Kennedy: Yeah. If there's no action to take, we often don't have anything to say. And even when we listened that way too, when women talk to us, we think, what do I need to do? We’re so hardwired into she's sharing, what do I need to do with this information? What does she need? Do I need to give her advice or do I need to do something for her?
You know, like that's, we've, we'd do it on the listening side as well. We're action-oriented in our communication. So there isn't as much reflection and talk therapy as an approach is generally just as threatening to men as talking to men, you know, going and seeing a therapist or going and speaking to and confiding and sharing your emotions is seen as feminine and therefore a threat to your identity as a man. So on a certain degree, men need to get over that cause they're suffering and they don't, they can't even admit that that's, it's a source of their suffering. And to a certain extent they don't know any better. I didn't know that my inability to connect to my emotions was robbing me of my satisfaction in life.
I don't necessarily need to become my emotions, although I will come back to what it looks like to embody your emotions and how powerful that can be. But I don't necessarily need to indulge in my emotions in a way that is also negative. I can actually connect to my emotions and I think it's a skill that men don't have.
They don't connect to their emotions. They don't, they can't identify this is the feeling I'm having and this is why I'm having that feeling. It seems out of touch. Because it's not something I can pick up, throw at the wall or destroy. So that's why at the men's retreats, I host, we do embodied emotional work.
We actually allow men to start with the emotion they're most familiar with, which is anger. So we prompt men, what are you angry about? And have them talk about what they're angry about. And we allow them, over a period of time, short period of time, to say enough about it and realize it's not gone, that no amount of talking is going to get the anger gone because the anger is symptomatic of something else.
And what I, from what I can tell all core negative emotions are somehow tied back to fear. You know, that fear is this core emotion that we ultimately are avoiding. And so getting angry about something definitely gets us off the hook for dealing with what we're afraid of. So when we embody emotions, that's where I allow men to go deeper.
So when I say embodied, what I mean is we get in a circle and they have to literally fight about it. They have to physically move their body scream, shout, you know, they don't throw punches. I coach them on how to do it safely, but they need to move their body because when they burn off that anger, what's right there are the emotions and the embodiment of sadness, grief, loss, even joy, sadness...It, it all just comes up to the surface and those are the most intimate and vulnerable experiences I've ever seen men inside of. Is when that first layer of anger is burned off and all of a sudden what they're really sad about, what they're really afraid of is right then and there not as something, a concept in their head, but a lived emotional experience right then and there they're actually connected to their emotions.
And that when you wrap that up with some conversation, so they can actually have it become an empowering experience versus something where they feel vulnerable and that they failed. If they can then speak about what they just experienced, it can really, it can it's bomb on that wound that can then really heal permanently.
So we have to do that in the desert or up in the mountains. Literally sometimes what it takes is we've got to actually get out in a way. So you feel like you can really scream at the top of your lungs to thrash with as much force as you've ever allowed yourself to, because that's seen as dangerous to exhibit that kind of behavior around women, or even around men, you know, we've, we've put a mute button on men's anger because it is dangerous, but that doesn't mean that bottling it up is any healthier. Yep. So that's one access point. But that's why I say just day to day in your daily life, getting connected to your physical body can help. That's why the pushups help. That's why pull-ups, that's why running, that's why physical exercise can help to burn off some of that, that surface level emotion to actually allow you to reflect and identify ah, this is what's going on.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yep. Totally clear. So what do us chicks do to support the men in our lives? Like, especially, you know, I have had a series of, you know, I was married at one point. The longest relationship I've had was eight years, but mostly I've had a handful of two year relationships and I've dated a lot.
And so one of the things I run into is, I love men and I would like to have men in my life. I'd like to have one man in my life. And I run into the injured, the abuse, the trauma traumatized that like is all wrapped up in pomp and circumstance on the outside. But for the first six to 12 weeks of dating is fine, fun and entertaining.
And then we start to get into the actual relationship part and I'm like, dude, you got work to do, I'll see you later. Let me know when that's done. More so inside my own personal commitments and now in a relationship with my partner for the last seven months, and we're inside of long-term committed conversation, it's like, okay, that's not an option.
And I want to support him and there's this territory to cover and I've got my own conversations, but I watch myself react to like that thing that you said about, for me, if he came to me with what he was actually dealing with, I can be with that all day long, but when it shows up as sarcasm, when it shows up as joking, when it shows up as these coverups, when he gives me a glimpse of it and then covers it up and says, it's not there anymore. My female empathetic self wants to scream, bloody murder because I know he's lying. I can still feel the emotion that sometimes he doesn't even know is happening and I can feel it coming off of him. And I just end up in this landlock where now I'm supposed to be able to like, turn that all off and be great with them and then just sit down and watch a movie and cuddle. And I'm just like, it's been this challenge as we've gotten deeper into our relationship. And my highest level is I want to support them, but not be a therapist. I want to be there for him in those moments of pain, but not be a mother and girlfriend all the time, so it's like, What do we do?
Ed Kennedy: Wow, what a case! Tough case. Very common. I, well, what I, first of all, I acknowledge you for being willing to walk away when a man demonstrates that he's not necessarily at the level you're committed to. And I think a lot of women end up turning their relationships into projects, you know, and they're very comfortable in that zone where and he is such a great guy except for a, B and C.
And I over time, those things are going to change and they're going to get better. Big warning signs. There are women that I dated that I'm so glad they dumped me because they saw how fucked up I was. Like, I, and it didn't feel good at the time, but I'm so grateful that women were willing had standards of their own and boundaries of their own. They said, no, you're, I'm not, I'm not getting in with that. Like come back in a couple years and we'll talk. Very powerful and I think, you know, So that's one surface level, initial piece of advice for women is to just make sure that just because there are men around you that are suffering suffering doesn't mean you need to date them. Just because they look like a hopeless case and they, and you're going to be the one that comes in and helps them out. You don't need to put them first and you seconds. And that is distinct from being in a long-term committed partnership. And so, you know, in my relationship with Morgan, my fiance, what she does that really makes a difference for me is give me space, you know, she knows where I'm at emotionally, often way more than I do. And she knows why he has been observing me, you know, like, like the women that I've been with and Morgan, especially they're watching, they know she knows what's going on with me even more than I do.
And I would say it goes in the other direction as well. I know what's really going on with her in cases becauseI can see what she is too close to. So on a certain level, the biggest difference that Morgan has made in my life is the ability to give me space. And yet she has been firm when necessary to tell me to go and do something about it without her.
You also, that she's asked me, like, do you want me to, have,... I'm an alcoholic, so go to AA meetings. So she goes, do you need to go to an AA meeting? Do you need to go out for a walk, do you need to? And so she instructs me suggests oftentimes where I need to go to get the support, you know, and she says, do you need to call some guys in your life?
And, and she's done it in a way that's not threatening. And there's some times where I rejected outright because I don't want to deal with it. And there's other times where I am open to it. And even if I say no, initially I ended up doing it because it's the right thing to do. So the power of persuasion is an art that women have mastered and I think you got to keep using that skillset in a way that is suggestive and makes a difference for supporting your man in getting what he needs. Now one-on-one, I think there are opportunities But I think the windows are often very small or shorts. So, you know, that's where you've, that's where even with my clients, I recommend finding some strategic opportunities.
So that might be looking at some ways you can set up your schedule so that you can be in an environment that's low stress. That's not threatening. And that's not got something, not got an easy distraction to it. So a lot of times where that happens for us is like when Morgan, I go out for a walk. So Morgan doesn't worry about trying to get me to talk about my feelings. She worries about getting me on the walk and lets the walk take care of the rest. So I think sometimes because women know what's going on or they have an intuition or a hunch and they want to be caring and loving, they want to get to the meat of it. But oftentimes getting to the structural space where that can happen is the, is the real goal because the walk takes care of itself. And the walk is what actually has me start talking about my emotions and talking about my feelings. So looking for those strategic opportunities to create a space that's not threatening. There's less distractions and asking, asking questions. If you're going to take a proactive approach what I have found is that some, sometimes the space I'm given, is it. And sometimes I know Morgan refrains from her temptation to want to help me and it's uncomfortable for her, but it makes a bigger difference than if she keeps picking at it. And I think that's also, that's an art and a skill that I think a lot of women could bring to their men.
Ultimately what men are are seeking is to be accepted. A lot of women want the stability and security of a relationship, but men, you know, what love often means to the masculine identity is acceptance. So, if you can find a way to make it undeniably clear that you accept your man, he will find a way to, he will reciprocate with his emotions.
And sometimes, you know, that has come down to, even in, even in sex relations, you know, there are experiences that allow a man to feel accepted by his woman, and that is incredibly powerful for a man to experience. And so it can, there's many arenas, I guess, is what I'm saying in sex relations there's a way to demonstrate that you accept him. In conversations there's ways to demonstrate you accept him. In the environment, there's ways to demonstrate you accept him. And that's where, you know, I've also pointed people to make sure they know the love languages and make sure they understand that if the man needs praise, like I do, praise the hell out of him. If the man needs physical touch, that's what he needs. He doesn't need to talk, he needs to be touched. He needs to, he needs to, he needs to be touched. So th those are some, there's a half dozen different ideas for what might assist, but it's, frankly, it's something that I'm continuing to discover. Because I have been in a prolonged state of anxiety and my partners just watched, you know, and I it's been difficult for her. So I know that. She's been doing everything she can to support me coming out of it.
Sarah Marshall, ND: yeah. Yeah. Clear. Yeah. I think about the love languages and words of affirmation and, you know, physical touch For me, it's acts of service.
And one of the things that we set up in our relationship was essentially a when in doubt to do list, like when in doubt here's things and it was for me, what I know works for me and for him, what he knows works for him. And, and like, you know, I know a lot of workspaces and, and teams operate on social media, not social media, but like messages like Slack.
We actually have a Slack channel for our relationship. And it's got all kinds of things on it. It's got the grocery list and it's got house projects and it's got dreams and it's got this like wellbeing area, which is like, what I know I need and what he knows he needs. And, and like for him, Sexual contact is a major one.
And for me, I need to be rested, fed, and warm to be interested in having sex. So the, like he makes sure dinner is handled and the house heat is that the right temperature and that I've gotten enough sleep. And then I am, you know, it's like, but we, we didn't. We took apart that part of all your should already know this, or, Oh, you know, that whole piece that can happen sometimes in relationships.
It's like, no, I just, I mean, as close to giving them an instruction manual, as I could, I've worked on that cause it's what actually empowers him and then he can provide that for me and then it works and we're both really happy about it.
Ed Kennedy: Yeah, I think we're attempted to because we are, because sometimes we're not secure in our own connection to having intimacy in our life, we like to keep it mysterious. We liked that we like to keep it mysterious. So we want to keep the other, their partner surprising us. And, and, and yet where Morgan and I have been very honest with each other about transactionally, what we need from each other with no judgment of ourselves or each other, our relationship has blossomed. So where she's clearly communicated, what she needs for us to have sex has made a huge difference in our relationship and the same thing with me, like with me being able to communicate what my needs are. And so I guess, Everything that we're talking about is on the mountain top of assuming that this man, any man you're with qualifies.
So there's, they have to have climbed enough up the mountain for these conversations. And you know, you shouldn't be wasting your time waiting for the man to get up to the mountain top. So if they demonstrate early in a relationship that they don't share their emotions, if they're not willing to share their emotions or their finances, they don't qualify for being a long-term partner.
That's my standard. I can't have conversations about your money or your feelings, how are we ever going to be successful together? Because our life is going to revolve around our money and our feelings. If we're gonna have a successful life together, it's going to involve money, feelings and a lot of other things but if those are the taboo areas and men aren't willing, then he's not qualified. We expect, you know, I think women are willing to, because they're, they're so committed and oftentimes attached to having love and a partner they've wanted it so badly, so desperately, they're willing to compromise the standards that lead to a successful relationship.
And there are a bunch of young boys out there that have no business being in a long-term relationship, and they're getting into long-term relationships because they think that's what they should be doing. When they're not ready, they shouldn't be. And I, I talk a lot of my male friends and men, men, clients I've had out of getting into relationships.
I've talked them out of getting married, not necessarily that they were already engaged, but I've really had them strongly consider if this is something that they think they should be doing. Versus something they truly choose. And, and that's been part of my own journey is maturing in my own sex identity with women about, and getting honest about what I really wanted out of relationships and to tell the cold, hard truth that I want to be with you, because I want to have sex with you. And I'll put up with everything else, as long as I'm getting sex. To be able to own that, you know, in my twenties and start to come out of that and start to realize how much I had missed how many opportunities I had missed in life, because my life was so driven by my sex identity. Just, it, it robbed me of a, of a lot of life experiences and, and ultimately I had to go through that to arrive here. Where sex is not the most important thing in my life anymore. That's another thing to look out for. If a man, if sex is the most important thing to a man, like, like literally his time, energy and money are all revolving around how he can get sex, you probably shouldn’t be in….
Sarah Marshall, ND: shouldn't be in a long-term relationship. Could be a great playmate if that and so that's a series of distinctions, I think I've said in some other podcasts, but this was just invented for myself was the distinction between playmates, lovers and partners. And I have had people that were extraordinarily awesome in my life I'm super glad that they were there and they were playmates and it wasn't just about sex. That was a big part of it, but it was like we had fun together. Bottom line. It was just freaking fun. We went and did things. We went on adventures, we ate great food, we had fun. And that was really it. We didn't work on each other's stuff we didn't share, but what we're really dealing with in any major way, there was no desire or need for that level.
And that's where I would say lovers' was like the sexual piece was there. The fun was there and there was an intimate connection, but that doesn't mean that then our lives fit together. And that was a whole nother level of my maturing was like at the level of lovers, there was great love for the other person and that's not the only thing. It's like great sex, great love, I care about this person. This person matters to me, but when I look at what I want in a partner who I'm going to live with, who may actually make power of attorney decisions in my life, that if I am disabled, as I never thought I would ever would be and I got hit with chronic fatigue syndrome… And all of a sudden I was like, would I be able to trust some level of turning over or having my business managed or somehow dealt with by this person being responsible for that part of my life? Like, that brings a whole nother set of things into the picture. And I grew into discovering those distinctions for myself and that there are awesome people that have floated in and out of my life at different time periods that have fit playmate and lover.
And that has not met partnership was where we were destined to go. Just because we loved each other, which I think is a whole nother...
Ed Kennedy: yeah. We've undervalued compatibility as a way to explore whether we should be with each other. We just, we, we, on the, on the feminine side, we, we seek for the emotional experiences of love and intimacy and on the masculine side, we seek satisfaction from sex and we, you know, those two things might meet up for a minute, but that does not mean that you fit together, like you said, and you know, that's, I've learned the hard way through that myself. And I've caused damage in my relationships through that and it's something that I've come to mature from and be able to then hopefully pass along to other men who are kind of following up behind me. Like, you know, if you're not ready for, if you're not ready for a committed right relationship, don't tell her that you want one, you know, don't play that game.
Cause you're just going to hurt her. And it's going to create all kinds of problems and messes and it's not even authentic and you're just lying to yourself. And then I think people, I think men then figure it out that sex is not all it's cracked up to be. At some point, I think I hope that men discover that sex is not the end all be all of life. It can be a powerful, beautiful part of life, but it is not necessarily the end all be all. And I think that's we're so hard wired biologically and culturally into that. And that's what we've got to kind of try to undo.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Well, you just leave it there in that big space of what we have left the work we have left to do. I mean, this is, this is just one snippet of a much bigger space, but I just so appreciate your raw passionate honesty to just put yourself in the conversation and like here's where I'm at… and you just always, I just love how you articulate things in a straight and compassionate way. And it just, I know it's going to make a difference for people to just even rattle with this. I'm watching myself over here, squirm a little, think a little bit about like, go like, Oh, this is going to work on me for a while. And it's awesome.
Ed Kennedy: Vice-versa. Yes having this conversation feeds and enriches me. And so, you know, if I get to give something, I know I'm going to receive it. Yeah. So right back at you, I'm in the hot seat myself as well, which is why we do this work, which is why we, you have these conversations. And I am so grateful that you invited me on again. If it makes a difference for one listener, we got our job done and I'm very grateful for the opportunity.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah, it also matters to me. I mean, you have been someone who leads men's work and what you're up to right now is particularly empowering women around finances. Correct?
Ed Kennedy: Yeah. What's interesting is, you know, my fiance's has been a money coach for five years, you know, she's helped many people, mostly women, but also men. Transform their relationship with money...
Sarah Marshall, ND: and Morgan was on Heal and we have an episode people can reference about that.
Ed Kennedy: Yeah. Go listen to it. She's just so wonderful. When I was looking at jumping from the corporate career, I looked at her business and I said, why are we going to create two businesses that are basically doing the same thing, functionally, coaching, powering transformation, but we're going to set up two whole different entities, businesses, target audiences and everything. And I just, we made a choice to serve the audience of women and money first. So I. In the coming years, we will start to do couples work and we will start to do I'll probably even do men's work around money. And, but right now there's been so much a positive response from what we have put out there through our company, vibrant money.
And so she helps people with the financial foundations. She hosts a monthly free webinar called wealthy Wednesdays. It's on the first Wednesday of every month. And then I host a what's called a bad-ass business builders webinar, on the third Wednesday of every month. So those are kind of ways that we both help clients.
She helps me with the financial foundations. I help people make more money. And we're loving it. It's been, it's been a real journey. Like I said, it's not cashflow positive yet. But that's because we followed her process. We have a year's worth of savings in the bank so we don't feel the anxiety as much as I would if I had to make this make money right away.
So that's where we've transitioned and I've, I've, I've learned so much by working with women in the last year and a half, particularly how much codependent behavior shows up in relationships and money. It's a space I just did not appreciate at all. So not to...
Sarah Marshall, ND: Podcast number three. No, really, I mean, cause yeah, that's a whole, that's nother episode which is great and why I love you. Okay it's cause there's always, Oh my God, the next conversation
Ed Kennedy: we just were, we just put up an article about codependency and money. So I'll share it with you. If you want
Sarah Marshall, ND: to share it, we'll make sure it's in the show notes for people.
Ed Kennedy: And I'm so grateful for the women in my life and women like you that are willing to have conversations with anyone. And I want to acknowledge you for who you are, for your audience, for your clients, for your partner. You're a wonderful woman and we are all lucky to have you. And we're all lucky to have you in the world and just bringing out these conversations. It's making a huge difference. I'm humbled and honored to see it happen.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Awesome. Thank you, Ed, we'll keep up the good work on both fronts until we get to meet again.
Ed Kennedy: Yes, I look forward to it.
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Sarah Marshall, ND: Inspired by the success of Heal, we are now a community of over 4,000 incredible healers. We will be launching some courses and workshops in 2021. Be the first to know about them by joining our mailing list at SarahMarshallND.com. Thank you to today's guest Ed Kennedy for his heart and strength. For a full transcript and all the resources for today's show visit SarahMarshallND.com/Podcast. Special thanks to our music composer, Roddy Nikpour, and our editor, Kendra Vicken. And as always, thank you for being here. We'll see you next time.