A Trans Transformation with Cori LoveJoy
On this episode, Cori LoveJoy shares from the midst of her recent transformation to becoming a transwoman. Join us as I discover how much there is for me to learn about loving myself, my body, and confronting my female privilege.
Referenced in the Show
Cori’s bio
Claim your personal power and show up as your authentic self. Cori LoveJoy, founder of LoveJoy Style, is a personal stylist and image consultant living in Salt Lake City. Her unique perspective and highly personalized approach to style and fashion helps her clients reclaim their own personal power and find the courage to show up as their most authentic selves in the process of reimagining their personal style and wardrobes. As a trans woman, her experience with self-discovery, self-expression, and ultimately, self-love and self-compassion make her a perfect guide to others on the path to self-discovery and showing up more and more as their true selves. Cori also works at Nordstrom and is a teaching associate professor at Washington State University. She is a former director of compassion and elite endurance athlete. She has two remarkable children and two expensive masters degrees. She is an aspiring model and motivational speaker. Follow her transformation on Instagram @cori.lovejoy
Photo credit: Peter Vordenberg
Full Transcript
Sarah Marshall, ND: Welcome to HEAL. On today’s episode, Cori LoveJoy shares from the midst of her recent transformation to becoming aa transwoman. Join us as I discover how much there is for me to learn about loving myself, my body, and confronting my female privilege. I’m your host, Dr. Sarah Marshall.
(music)
Sarah Marshall, ND: Cory joy. Thank you so much for being here and doing this with me.
Cori LoveJoy: Oh my gosh. It's my pleasure. You have been looking forward to that.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah, I am just acutely aware of how much there is that you have to contribute, which I know is not quite, I mean, telling your story is going to be a part of this, but like you've already said things to me that have had me look at my femininity and who I am as a woman in a completely different light. And I've done a lot of work in that area. So like, I'm just excited about where we end up going in this conversation.
Cori LoveJoy: Yeah. That's that's awesome. Thank you for that. Yeah, I think that, you know, I have maybe a different vector a different viewpoint into the feminine. And so I've had several people tell me that, exactly what you said, that it's just changed their view. And I think that that's awesome. Like, I love that it's humbling and it's like, well, that's a fabulous legacy to leave if that's all it ends up being.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah, absolutely. So you've had quite a year or two,
Cori LoveJoy: That’s an understatement...
Sarah Marshall, ND: Understatement of the century. And so you want to tell us a little bit about your journey the last few years?
Cori LoveJoy: Yeah, well, there's obviously a bunch leading up to this, but I think, you know, the part that's relevant to being trans is that it actually first started in a plant medicine ceremony that I participated in. And it was my first one. And, you know, up until that point, I had done a lot of personal work.
I felt like a lot of meditation, a lot of just, I did a really intensive master's degree program that was cohort based. That was a really great container for personal growth and personal development. I've had some really close friends to this day that were in that program. And so I felt like, you know, I'd been on this like, and almost always on this journey of self discovery.
And that led me to the plant medicine. And just from the very first experience with the plant medicine, I felt this like overwhelming energy that I could only describe as the feminine. And it didn't feel personal at that point. It just felt like a rising of a feminine energy. And I was aware of this. I mean, I just, like, I saw it on the sort of the global scale of like, yeah, well, women have been marginalized and sexualized and objectified and, and, you know discriminated against and left out of leadership roles and opportunities.
And so it's like an, you know, as a a husband to just an amazingly powerful, you know, divine goddess who just is the epitome of the defined feminine and a father of a daughter who is just, you know, amazingly wise I was just tuned into this. And so I just saw it as this like rising kind of need for this global feminine energy.
But as I continued to do these plants ceremonies, they it became more personal and it became more of an embodied experience. And I realized, Oh, this is an aspect of myself that, you know, obviously I'm projecting out into the world, but that's, it's projecting and has projected back out into me. And I'm just like becoming more and more aware of, of this, Oh, this is an energy that I need to accept that we need to accept that at every, every level. And of course I have all sorts of baggage and beliefs about this view of femininity that comes from like this male perspective of which I was very well steeped in the talks.
And I believe it's a T it's a toxic view on the feminine. I'll just say one more thing. I could get a little talky, but you know, I mean, I think that toxic male view of the feminine, portrays it as a weak, portrays it as, something that's to be used to be objectified sexualized, and I think ultimately men are scared of the feminine, I think like historically, this toxic, weak masculine is intimidated and, ultimately terrified of the feminine energy. And so this is like the, the response, whereas, I think we need, you know, everyone needs more healthy relationships with the feminine.
Sarah Marshall, ND: We referenced it as the toxic male, because that's the perspective, but it's become so ubiquitous in our culture. I mean, I'm guilty of it. And I am a believer in wanting to heal the feminine, have more of the powerful, feminine available in my own life. But I watch like, I'm going to totally tell one on myself, which is so when Biden started appointing his cabinet and people at the heads of state, and I was watching how many women were getting appointed, there was a voice in my head that was like, are they really up to the job?
Yeah, that is not, this is nothing it's like literally straight programming. That's where that came from. And I had like an inherited neurologic bias when I would look at the images and I'd look at the names and it said Karen and not Ken. And it said Susan and not Sam. And there was some part of, even in my brain just like programming, that was like, huh, really?
Are you sure? Should we have so many women? And I'm like, I caught myself in it when I was watching, you know, reading through the news. And I was like, where is that coming from? Given that it's literally contrary to what I would say my beliefs are. And yet it's like, so embedded still in the way that we view women and powerful women and not powerful women in femininity as a whole.
Cori LoveJoy: Yeah, totally. Right. I mean, those, I, you know, I, I believe like to me, it's like that noise in our head, like what has been, what we've absorbed. Growing up and what our culture tells us. And I think there's like, I think what the plant medicine and, you know, sort of years of meditation and introspection allowed me to do was like, notice those voices, notice that become aware of just that and say, look, that's not authentic to me.
Like, it's, you know, I hear that. I am thinking that, and that's not me. And so, you know, what that allowed me to do was go more, get out of my head and go more into my body and sense like a more authentic voice. That's like, no, this is, this is powerful. It's wise, it's brilliant creative energy that is patient and nurturing and loving and it's and it's healing. And so for everyone. Yeah.
Sarah Marshall, ND: But not everyone that goes into plant ceremony comes out and decides to make a massive transformation and becoming trans. So there's more to the story for you of it becoming personal and what it awoken in you.
Cori LoveJoy: Yeah. Where, I mean, I mean, I think it, you know, I th I think that plant medicine and all of this personal work, just, you know, if done right takes us to what we need to see what we've been ignoring. And so you know, I mean, this is, I guess, an invitation to tell just my story about being trans. And so I guess, you know, it starts with well, I'll just say unlike any other, you know, I've heard many, many trans people say that they felt like a man in a woman's body or a woman in a man's body, or, you know, like that's, I think very common story.
And I never felt that way. I never, that my transness never manifested itself that way. The only thing I was aware of from a young age was just wishing I was a girl and being just like fascinated with the feminine. I had a best friend who's old had an older sister and best friend, you know, then, you know, like these two, you know, teenage girls that I, you know, grew up seeing and, and just like, you know you know, classmates and stuff just, you know, absorbed in the feminine and that's how I experienced it as just this kind of wish.
And to me that, yeah, I felt pathological, well, it felt wrong. I didn't know anybody else that thought that. I mean, I remember going to the Nutcracker when I was very little and like seeing the ballerinas and stuff up there and the princess and just being like, wouldn't that be awesome? You know, like that's what I want to be when I grow up as a princess.
Yeah. You know, and that's like, there was no, I, I didn't know any that just seemed wrong, you know? So I just, like, I felt embarrassed and ashamed about that. And my mom, the only other thing that comes up is my mom tells a story and I don't even remember it. She just tells me if the first time I went, which wouldn't maybe not the first time, but she took me to a shoe store and I want to girl shoes.
But for me it was just this kind of longing or does this die desire a pull towards the feminine. And so what happened that plant does a different plant ceremony, but you know, I've done a series of these and the, the, the one that was pivotal was one where I got what I call a download from the universe.
I call them downloads from the universe. I mean, there, I hear these voices and they they're like pithy little instructions that have been very, very. Good to me. And you know, I don't know if it's my authentic voice, my subconscious or God or the universe. So I just calmed down your
Sarah Marshall, ND: consciousness. I similar, similar experience over here too. Yeah, for sure.
Cori LoveJoy: You know, I'm in this one ceremony with my very good friend, a very best friend in the world. And he, you know, we were there in the desert alone and just him, he and I, and I heard this like very audible voice that said you're a girl and. You know, I had had it before then. I hadn't ever, I had a friend that was I got to know is actually an intern at our company who is trans.
And so I was aware of trans and, but me, like, I wasn't gay because I was always attracted to women and, you know, it's like an I, and I didn't really know what trans, I didn't think I was trans because my experience was so different than what I had had heard other trans people say. So it was like, I didn't know what this was, but when it said you're a girl, when the voice said, you're a girl, I'm like, well, Oh, that would make sense.
Well, okay. If I'm a girl. Well, that would explain if I am meant to be a girl inside of me, which is like this, like, what it felt like is, is like, Oh, this longing, it's like, Oh, well that would explain it. Like, if that's your authentic self, like, that's why you would wish, wish for that. And long for that and desire that.
And, and so that's kinda what happened and that was in July of 2019. And at that point, I remember just before that ceremony, I was thinking, Oh my life's perfect. Like I have this amazing wife, these two amazing kids. I it's amazing job. As the director of compassion at a wealth management firm, I was putting on compassionate leadership summits that were wildly successful.
People were reaching out to me. I was teaching a class at Washington state university and I'm just like, my life just felt like, you know, on the surface. Perfect. It was like everything that I had wanted I had everything; except for that little nagging voice that said, you know, you're a girl and you want to be one.
And, and so, and I it's, like, I tried to outrun that I tried to like, ignore it and push it down. And I, you know, distract myself and I did a very good job with addictions of all sorts, started out like addictions of sports. I was an endurance athlete and, and I, you know, like in midlife, I got back into cycling. I took it to a very high level just because I like obsessed about it. And with work. I mean, I just get into these things intense because if I can occupy all my mental capacity, I don't know, you have to let those little
Sarah Marshall, ND: voices don't come up experiences. Like I, you know, often tote myself as a recovering workaholic and that getting diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome has been the best thing that's ever happened to me because it was the universe just literally putting the brakes on, in a way that I don't think I ever would have sorted out myself, but now my body just has a certain capacity, but one of the hardest parts is when I take that much needed rest, and I really slow down multiple days in a row, all the hidden, like whatever I haven't been looking at, whatever. I haven't been dealing with whatever I've been ignoring, like emotionally and mentally. Like they're like little bubbles that start to come out of the organic decay at the bottom of the Lake. And they're like, dude, dude, what about me? And some of them are consistent and there's themes to them. And it's like, when I get quiet, it pops back up again so I can completely get that.
Cori LoveJoy: Yeah. Yeah. And it just, it manifested itself as like, you know, running from it or distracting myself from it, avoiding those voices. And I think when I finally sat down and, and learn sitting meditation and mindfulness to see those, then you know, I started to trace those bubbles back to their source, see them, see the patterns and get curious about them and be like, well, I wonder where those are coming from.
And sitting meditation. So it really like my journey ultimately is like a journey of self compassion because, you know, I got so into compassion and, and trying to become a more compassionate person and more empathic person and realizing that like, I didn't, I didn't like myself. Right. I, you know, I didn't, I didn't like my body.
I, you know, I had this great life, but I didn't let, I love that. I love the people around me and I just, but I didn't love myself. And, you know, I mean, this has Ru Paul says, you know, honey, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you gonna love anybody else? You know, can I get an amen up in here?
Amen. Yeah. So, so like that. So it's really been like at some level of journey of, of self-compassion to just build this. And then I think that when I teach compassion and and, and mindfulness training, I do think that just sitting with yourself and being still and holding space for yourself is the ultimate act of self-compassion.
Because I think of it like this you know, if a loved one comes to you and says, Oh, I've lost my mother, my husband, or partner or whatever, and, you know, they've passed away and it's like, what can you do or say in that moment, I mean, all you can do. You know, the most compassionate thing you can do is hold space for your friend and just be there and witness that and, and, and, and hold them and whatever they need to process.
And that's the same ones that self-compassion like. We just need to be able to sit with ourselves and witness our, you know, witness this part of ourselves that just needs to suffer or grieve and, and allow that to happen and allow that emotion. And rather than get caught up in the story that I'd like to me, it's like a, a journey of embodiment of like feet, like allowing myself turning off the, my mind enough to allow myself to feel that energy in me just let it and witness it and let it process. Yeah. Yeah. And there's thoughts associated with that energy. I like to think of emotions as thoughts, plus feelings, and, but, you know, for so long, I just was so caught up in my head. I never connected with, with the feeling. And I think that that's part of what the feminine energy in me is like.
Sarah Marshall, ND: So do you experience yourself as happier more whole now? Has that happened? Are you still like, where are you in the journey at this point?
Cori LoveJoy: Well, I'm learning, I need to love myself. So I am happier in some senses. You know, like I've, I do love myself more. Unfortunately it feels like it's come at the cost of a lot of things I loved.
And in particular my life with my wife and my family, my two glorious children and sweet puppy You know, so there's a deep sea, you know, it's like, it's a, it's a mixed, it's a mixed bag. But I mean, just in relation to my work and too, like, I was got to the point and so that, you know, where I said my life was perfect in 2019, like at that moment I wasn't happy inside.
And you know that like, you know, I felt hollow inside and everything. Just my life just kind of crumbled from the inside out. We got hollowed out. So the last thing that crumbled was like the stuff on the surface, but it, it literally, I experienced like this huge shift in my life while everything stayed stable.
And then eventually this thing broke to the surface, the whole thing shattered, and I left a lot of damage, you know, it's like, it wasn't an elegant thing. I mean, you know, we call it transitioning, but I think the transformation is a better word and the transformation is huge and it's been monumental for me. And, and it, you know, it was messy. It got messy…
Sarah Marshall, ND: transformation comes with death and decay and losing and ending things as other things can get reborn or born period. But it's, yeah. I mean, any transformation in my life has not, there's always been all aspects too alright. I mean, that's something I've gotten a lot from my experiences in ceremony and with meditation is recognizing how much I push away anything disorderly, you know, it's like, I think I can get through personal growth without ever making a mess of anything. I, at least, at least I tried for a really long time and I've had coaches all the way through to my spiritual work where that's come up a lot, which is, you know, it's, it's allowing things to get messy and trusting yourself to work through them.
Cori LoveJoy: Yeah. Well, I think it's, I mean, I think that I think we claim to what we know. Right. And even if it's, you know, even if it's a dysfunctional story, I mean, we're, I think as human beings, we are so scared of the unknown. And so we only know what we know. And so like, I think it is, I think that's what happened is like it's, as my life crumbled around me, I got to the point where I was like, trying to figure out how to kill myself, not if. Like, what's the right way to do this.
I was ready to just like, I'm, like I was saying to myself, I haven't had a good life. Like I'm successful. I'm only causing suffering here. Like what can I do? I can't be what I want to be, which is a woman that feels impossible. Yeah. And so I'm, I'm ready. I'm done. I was just like, it was just as a cool, calculated thing.
Calculus of like, okay. Yeah, like I'm done, I'll just end this and you know how best to do it. And I was not afraid in the least bet. And then like one night. I was drunk and, you know, probably high and very depressed. And, and I heard the same voice, you know, this download and the download said, Cori, you're clearly, you're not afraid to die. Like that's evident. Why are you afraid to live? And I had always sort of like fancied myself as this courageous person and not like in leaning into fear. And so in my name, Cori actually comes from the French word core, which means heart, which is courageous wholeheartedness, which is just like leaping in.
And th that's what it means to me. So that like sparked something in me. And I can ego, like, like who you calling scared, but it was true, but because I looked at it and it said, you know, I was scared because, you know, I. I was scared to really live. I didn't know. I knew what was I knew and I had a sense for what could end.
I didn't know what was going to end, but I knew the risks. I knew that, you know, I'm putting my marriage at risk, my job at risk, my everything at risk. Like, it felt like the most terrifying thing in the world to say to people. I think I'm trans. I want to be a woman. I think I'm a woman. Like I didn't even know the language.
But to just start to like, allow myself to think this and talk to about it and actually say it, maybe this is a possibility that was terrifying because I knew like, it was like, I could lose everything. I felt like I could lose everything, but then you're at the end. So I'd rather like sometimes we stick to the stuff, you know, it's like, you know, stick to that old world because at least we know it.
And the unknown is terrifying because we can't imagine. I can see just the blankness or the void like this, the darkness, and I'm terrified of the darkness, but anyone who tells you, you know, that when they've gone into that darkness and leaped into the darkness, that it's not empty. That it's, that's where the law, that's where the love and the life comes up.
So what you, what happens is when you leap into that darkness is like new life comes up, but you can't see it, You know? Cause you can't, you can't imagine it because it's so outside, it's a new level of consciousness. It's a new thing. And so you I've, so I've just gotten kind of like addicted now I've just like leaping into that unknown, like saying, Oh, this is terrifying and doing it.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Yeah. So when we look at the timeline then from that July, 2019 to it's, you know, spring 2021, that's not actually a lot of time in some senses for, for. I mean, you're out, you're way out. You're living as a woman you've created, you know, and, and, and there is this, you know, cause I, we met just at the impetus of this beginning before you had even begun to start to express it outwardly.
And, but like, for me, it's like, this is who you are the, I mean, they, they, you know, there's, there's nothing else for me, some of that's timing, but some of that is I think actually not just about that, I think it's because this is who you are and you're now, you know, it's kind of cliche, but our insides and our outsides matching that up, truing that up and this expression that's coming out of you is like, so clear to me. There's no, I mean, not that my opinion is the point, but like it just out here outside of you, like I'm like, and she's out.
Cori LoveJoy: Yeah. Well, no, I think, I think that's, I mean, thank you for that. And I mean, I feel as a good friend of ours said last night. Yeah. You know, you've taken to this like a fish to water.
And I mean, I really, really, I started to like really transition seriously, like you know, from our perspective and present more and more feminine was like in the summer of last year. I've started to take the, I started HRT in August, like very early August, late July, and you know, started to, you know, dress more and more in the way I wanted to dress, which is very feminine.
I love everything feminine. I love it. All shoes, makeup, hair, nails, eye shadow, like name it and dresses. And I love it. And and that's, I've had that experience. A lot of people just say, Oh yeah, like it was a little weird at first, but then it's just like, this is you. It's so clearly you, and it's like, nothing in my life feels like it's come naturally to me, it always has felt like a fight. Like I've just like, like a battle, like everything, sports and work. I felt like it just had to like chisel away at it and nothing has felt so naturally authentic to me. And, and so, you know, I've just, I really feel like this was meant, this was so meant to be, and that's the evidence cause my voice, I still have those voices in the head.
And you asked my question about, you asked the question about like, you know, how do I feel about myself now and happier? And, you know, I think on average, I'm happy on a day to day living where like, I love, like, you know, there was that time and this is where I got off track because there was a time when, you know, I was going to bed wishing I wouldn't wake up because I had made a commitment not to kill myself, but I could wish I couldn't wake up.
You know what I mean? It's still, I think I made a commitment not to kill myself to some very important people. But it didn't make me want to live anymore just because I said, well, you know, since like, you know, maybe I maybe this'll happen for me and I can be, you know, clean hands, but, but you know, I, as I started to You know, I, as in the voices are still there.
The voices just say, cause when I imagine a trans person, what I imagined, like the voices in my head, I go to like, I have some dark places in my head. And what I've learned is that, you know, my mind and this is, this comes, quotes comes from a very good friend of mine is my mind is like a bad neighborhood.
You shouldn't go through it alone because these voices I hear are very loud and it takes a lot for me to calm down and still to, and hear that inner voice. And so I still have this very loud voices that said, you know, you're a freak strong with you. No one loves you. You're ugly, et cetera, et cetera. It's just having this conversation yesterday with you and this friend.
And who's late. Who's been my mother. Kate who's just taken me under her wing, but just reminding me that, you know, you like, you can't listen to those voices. And so what I'm hearing and so I'm paying more attention to the feedback that I'm getting and the feedback I'm getting is like, yeah, you're good at this.
Like, you know, I work at Nordstrom now. I mean, three months ago when I got to Salt Lake City, I was terrified to go into Nordstrom. I was, I went through Nordstrom and I went through there quickly because it's like, I don't belong here. And three weeks later I'm getting an offer to I'm offered a job in customer service.
And I'm like as floor ambassador, store ambassador, where I walked around and I greet people like, I'm the face of Nordstrom when you walk in at city Creek mall high-end mall and in Salt Lake City. And, and, but it's because it's like, It just, it lit up in me. Right. And it felt, and I just have to like, and the voices say, this is crazy.
Now I'm a shop girl. I got promoted. The fragrance. I sell fragrance. I'm studying to become a personal stylist. I take people shopping. I love personal style. I've started a Instagram account. I get feedback all the time. People tell me I'm gorgeous and I'm pretty. And I'm, and I'm really good at outfits and they love shopping with me.
And I love it. I mean, I think it's awesome. And I come at it. It's not for me cause I'll try to land this plane. For me back to the feminine. It's not like, yeah, I love the clothes and the shoes and dresses and the makeup to me that helps me feel that defined from, that connects me with the feminine. And for other people that's just, those are all symbols of the patriarchy and broken or wounded. I should have said before. I don't like the word toxic masculinity. I like wounded masculine because I think that's more accurate because it comes from a wounded place. And if you can do that, you can have compassion for, and I realized that I embodied the toxic masculine, but believe me, there's a many, many well-intentioned men out there that are toxic. But it's because they're wounded and haven't had the option.
Sarah Marshall, ND: The toxicity is impacting them as much as anyone in self-fulfilling.
Cori LoveJoy: Yeah, for sure. For sure. So this all feeds on each other, but you know for me, so that's how the feminine manifests in me, but like, That's just my it's like everyone has to find their own feminine and it's just like, but for me, what it's more about and when I go shopping and I take, you know, talk to friends about style and whatever... Style to me is not about what's being fashionable or fitting in. It's obviously not because I'm obviously not fitting into these norms. Fashion for me is about personal empowerment style. That's why I call it style and not fashion and it's about like, having that congruence and having that, you know, sense that the inside and the outside reflect each other and we're presenting the way that we want to feel. And it is this reinforcing loop, because then we look at ourselves in the mirror, we get the feedback, we get affirmed. And so I'm getting a lot of this affirmation and I'm spending more and more time listening to the feedback I'm getting.
And, and you know, I tell these ladies that I, I shop and I talked to style about it, just like, you know, they, you know, they'll look at a dress or put on a dress like, Oh, I don't like it. I don't like the way my arms look in this dress. Or, you know, I don't know if it's going to be in fashion. When would I ever wear this, et cetera, et cetera.
I'm like, girl, get out of your head. Like, do you like the way this dress looks, yes, it put it on. Do you like the way it feels on? And it could be jeans, I'm just taking a dress. But and the answer is, yes, it's like, that's yours. That's all you need to know. How do I feel in this? And do I like the way I look in this?
And it's like, that's, that's about empowerment. And so, so for me, it's like love joy style. Like my name's Cori Custer, but I, I am changing it to Cori love joy, and this has been a journey of self love and then a joy. And then finally being able to like truly love others, because I can love myself. And the joy that comes with that and style that is just like about personal empowerment and finding our power and our voices and how we want to present it in the world.
Sarah Marshall, ND: Cause you and I were having that conversation and you know, I've been in the camp of, I hate shopping, you know, most of my life and, and, and I didn't even know this was in there until you and I were talking over tea. This old story about being 12 and 13 year old girl. Because I was a downhill ski racer and I skied and skied and skied, and I rode horses in the off season.
And so I had really developed thighs. Like I wasn't, it's amazing how, like I wasn't even particularly, and this was in the eighties and there was less variance in size in kids at that point. And I couldn't buy girls jeans. I only fit into boys jeans. And I don't know, honestly, whether it was chicken or the egg, like was I already tomboy leaning?
And that kind of went that way or was that part of what had me go? And I remember in one of my God, I've done so many meditation retreats and personal growth workshops. I'm not quite sure where this epiphany came to me, but I remember coming up against a conversation that said, I'm not good at being a girl.
So I'm gonna play the tomboy card. And like in high school I shaved my head and I didn't wear it. And it had nothing that was like, Pink or floral? All of my clothes were like baggy skater jeans. And like, I might wear a little tank top or something that was kind of leaning into the feminine side, but like, I didn't do my makeup.
I didn't do my hair. Like I got a nose ring at 15 years old was just like, you know, part of my, kind of pushing the rebellious side of things. And it really wasn't until quite frankly, late college med school, I would say more med school, 25 years old that I was around a group of women that were intelligent and powerful and earthy and grounded and beautiful.
And I was like wanted what they had. And that was when I first started like a little leaning. I was in Portland. So, you know, coming from ski background, it was like, that was like one step in the direction of femininity. So like now I had like a khaki skirt and I had some like flat Mary Jane's, you know, it was like a long way away.
And it wasn't then until I moved to Arizona to Phoenix, Arizona in 2012, that like, my woman as an expression of style started to show up in my life. And again, it was through mentorship from another woman who is great at it. One of my best friends in the whole world. And, you know, you walk into her closet and it's, you know, stiletto shoes as high as the ceiling and these amazing dresses and sweaters.
And she just started pulling stuff out of her closet and putting me in it and started also deleting things out of my own wardrobe. She's like, you can't wear that anymore. You can't wear that anymore, but it was all came from love. And it was like, I was 29 years old when I started to step into that space of tighter fitted dresses and, and power suits and stiletto heels.
Now, Scottsdale, Arizona helps out a lot too, because there's no ice and most of the concrete is new. So you can walk on flat ground and not trip over yourself. You know, like, I mean, I had been in Bozeman, Montana, and I've lived in Portland and you know, but it's just interesting to see this journey in myself, reflected back from what you've shared as well as like, I can see these decades, quite frankly, where it was like, I moved the needle a little bit more, but I had come from an original grounding of, you know, I wanted to be whatever my driving factors were cool fit in, in a particular way. And somewhere along the lines, like, yeah, I loved my tomboy side, but I seriously am pretty sure there were elements that were grounded in a decision that I'm not any good at doing the girly things.
So this is my easy out to just dismiss the whole thing and say, I'm not interested. And it was that story of like remembering how much I hated going shopping because I couldn't fit in to girls jeans. And like, was that part of sewing that thread into my persona that I eventually started to heal and take apart.
Cause now I'm like, I love it. I love, I love all sides, like downhill ski racer girl that, you know, flip flops and a pair of Patagonia, snow pants to like dressing up to the nines and getting to, you know, donn a beautiful dress and heels and the whole thing. Although I still notice, I tell myself I'm not any good at it. I'm like, I'm not good at this.
Cori LoveJoy:That's interesting. I think that's a very common story. And you know, it's like, when, like I said yesterday, when, you know, you said I don't like shopping or whatever I say, you know, well you're not doing it right. You know, shopping is fun. It's fun. The clothes are fun. So yeah.
This not knowing how to do it. Well I think there's a couple, I mean, this opens up an interesting whole thing that I've noticed as I've started to make girlfriends and it's. So I have I have this amazing group of friends now around me and people I talk to and And, you know, like I'm, I'm, I'm really, I feel like I'm just been accepted as a girl in these circles.
And so we have different conversations. I do, you know, I do you know, I, I guess. I have this perspective right. Of having fit in, in a man's world and now am fitting into a woman's world and relating. And I was, you know, I told you recently that, you know, I was at a girl's party and a girls party, you know, all girls, all women.
And they were like, you know, trying to figure out what their husbands were doing. And like, you know, like, you know, kind of man bashing a little bit. And I was, I was like, no, no, let me tell you what they were thinking. And so I called it, I called it man's lading. So I was like, you know, going, I was like going through each of these and sharing, you know, like, Oh, this is what he was actually thinking.
Like when he looked down and saw you wearing flip-flops and you know, and you're on a hike and he wasn't, you know, and you're now you're mad at him for not saying anything. Well, it's because you know, he's looked down for years and years and seeing you wearing impractical footwear knows how it ends when he makes a comment about your shoes.
So why is now any different? He doesn't know. It's like woman. Impractical footwear. I don't get it. Don't say anything. It's that simple. So that's interesting women has these conversations. Another one I had is like about women and their bodies and, and, you know, and like them not liking their bodies, or I see these gorgeous women who are complaining about, Oh, I wish my, you know, my cheeks were a little different or I wish my arms were a little skinny or whatever.
And and I just like, you know, girl, check your privilege here because like, listen, and to me, I have to go, if I look like you, you know, it just, it, I just had to S that these three, these women I was talking to, and they were like, I don't like this. And I'm like that. And I'm like, okay, shut up. You're all gorgeous.
Like, I, you know, I would like, I would give anything. And literally I kind of am giving everything to look like that. I mean, the risks we take as trans people, you know, both through our physical safety, but also just, you know, their side effects to HRT and. For those who, you know, like where gender affirming surgery is saving nd it often is, I mean, you know, suicide rates and trans people are high and they go down and maybe return to normal levels, which are also high, but, you know, but, but, you know, generally led to the levels of the general population when they get gender affirming surgery and these are high-risk surgeries.
So it's like, yeah, people will give a lot to have what you have. And so check your privilege. I think of, you know, people who risk their lives and their family's lives to, you know, get across the border for an opportunity. And so it's, it's that kind of thing. So it's like, so remember, like, remember the privilege that you have as a woman and if you're not any good at it, well, that's just a matter of that can be learned. You know, that's the thing is it's there, it can be learned and you just got you just for whatever reason, those voices told you to turn it off or quiet or be ashamed of it. And like, you got to the point and you're 29 probably, you know, med school, like you're, it's like all of a sudden you're like, I'm ready to be whole, I'm ready to be my whole self and not shy away from any aspect of myself.
And it's really a journey of wholeness, not just the feminine. So I feel like my, you know, my more divine masculine side has developed to, you know, and this hasn't gone away, but as this divine feminine, but I'll just say one more thing about the not being good enough or not knowing how to do it was the same thing as like, not enough not being good at it.
And you know, this is what Carol Dweck says with mindset is like, you know, we'll fix, you know, well Train on it, work at it. And it's not that hard and you can find mentors and you can find people. When I first came out to a lot of my good friends, they were all great. And they had an awesome response and, you know, the response was like congratulations, I'm so happy for you.
And I'll love you no matter how you show up, I love who you are. And that was wonderful. And I had one friend in particular, our mutual friend, Kate, who had that response and then the response of, okay, well, we got work to do, you know, because she knew this intuitively and I've figured this out. That there's nothing that I did in my 48 years presenting as a man and living as a man that prepared me for this.
So she took me to girl school. We call it girl school. I came out to Salt Lake City, you know, you saw that you were there. She taught me how to do my makeup. She took me to Matt Landis who's a phenomenal hairdresser in town hairstylist. Wonderful man. Awesome. And she took me to her friend Lisa is an esthetician and like she just, her her cousin's a model and she came, you know, surprised me with this, you know, model school, you know, in carrying yourself because I think I'd said I always wanted to be a model. Like to me, that was a bit epiphany of like this desired life that I could never have was this fashion model.
It'd be a fashion icon, be a stylist. And so like, this was in October of last year and it's April and you know, it's hard. Like I've always been accused of being too, too humble. And I'm going to, I'm not, I'm going to own this. I've gotten good at it. I've gotten good. I get compliments. I work at Nordstrom. I get complimented on my outfits.
I get complimented on my style. I get complimented on my makeup and I say that not, I mean, it feels good. I like it. And I'm going to own it. And I, and that's part of me learning to love myself is listening to the voices around me rather than listening to those indoctrinated voices in my head and saying that, okay
Sarah Marshall, ND: And being willing to repeat that stuff because I think that's something culturally that we're like, Oh, I'm talking about myself.
But I mean, trust me, we could use, what do they say for every 10 negative comments? For like in spousal relationships, they say every, every 10 negative things that get said, you know, you have to say a hundred positive things to counterbalance that it's like a one to 10 ratio at least. And we might even find it more well, think about what goes on inside of our heads.
So for all of those thoughts in our head, you know, actually being able to speak it to own it, to own our power, to own what we're good at to own what we're not good at, but to be able to speak from that compassionate place as well.
Cori LoveJoy: Yeah. There's lots of, there's lots of stuff. I mean, that's what this is, is personal empowerment and just like own who you are and like, yeah. There's lots of stuff I'm not good, at tons of stuff...
Sarah Marshall, ND: but I think I know where you're going with this. You started in October and it's April and you're good at it.
Cori LoveJoy: I'm good at it. I'm at Nordstrom in Salt Lake City and building I'm good at it. I'm good at it. And it feels weird for me to say that, but I think like practice it, like practice saying to yourself, like, I'm beautiful, I'm good at it.
I'm a goddess. Like I have another good friend in, in Seattle and you know, it's like, We have to remind each other ladies that were goddesses, you know, and I think women generally do that pretty well. They compliment each other on our clothes and our makeup and our hair, but I think we can take it up a notch and say, just like re like we need to remind each other that this feminine energy is powerful.
It's creative, it's loving, it's nurturing, nurturing. And we got to remind each other that we have that power that's in us that there's like, whether you're expressing or not in you have that divine feminine in you. And it just like, wake it up, whatever that means. And so, so girls, it turns out that like, and Kate was a master, she took me to girls school, but it's like, yeah, I learned a quick face. You know, I buy a lot of my clothes, but a lot of my clothes at consignment. So it's, so I could play around a little bit and lower stakes. You know, I, I, I really try to like tune into what I like and what feels good and not like what I think is gonna be like gonna fit in or how I'm going to look, or is it going to be in fashion, but it's just, I quiet those voices.
And so I love it. And I love, I love like to hear you say that somehow I helped you connect in a more authentic way to yourself, into your feminine side. And that's why I do it. And so it's, for me, it's a spiritual thing. Like the makeup and the fragrances, cause I'm in fragrance at Nordstrom. Come see me, I love to play with them and fragrances. A little shameless self-promotion here, but for me it's as much spiritual and personal development as it is, you know? It's not superficial. Clothes, like, you know, a lot of people say, well, it's superficial, it's tried. It's it's, you know, but it's not for me. It's it's that it is about that authenticity and that congruence and personal power.
Sarah Marshall, ND: what I think, I mean, I've noticed it, you know, this last year has given us such an experiment, right? Like I, you know, quarantined for half the year and then very limited social exposure most of the other time. And most of the people I've been around are either family or close friends, you know, at all.
And I totally have dropped. I mean, I'm doing it right now into the yoga pants and a zip-up hoodie, you know, grab just the next t-shirt in the stack. I don't even look at what color it is. I don't even know. It's just like where there was a time where I was doing three, four, five corporate events a week and I was getting dressed up in suits and I was, you know, almost on a regular basis.
And it's interesting to notice some of the things that subtly I've watched tip this year. Like I've been more in a conversation of not feeling pretty. Not feeling sexy, you know, this year than I can ever remember. And I think some of it is just cause, I mean, it was just a bad habit. I just stopped and gotten a little bit better about it, you know, but I've looked now for those opportunities and I mean, yesterday was a classic one and you said to me, you're like, I get dressed up cause I can, you know, I just want to, I get to do this and the like appreciation of that.
And so yesterday when we were going to meet at our friend's house, I was like, I'm putting a dress on for Cori joy, but it, it did something for me. I spent the whole day in this off shoulder, roughly the blue dress and like it did shift something. And I do believe in, you know, yeah, of course we, we can deal with the other side of the coin where we get caught up in the superficial of like trying to fit in by projecting something out into the world that doesn't feel congruent.
It doesn't feel authentic to who we are. We're doing it as an in order too, but I think we've thrown the baby out with the bath water. And my mom who was a starch feminist from the 1960s and seventies would tell you, she's like, yeah, we took things a little far, you know, were it went so far into that conversation that we lost some of the feminine...
Cori LoveJoy: it became anti-feminine in a way.
Sarah Marshall, ND: And like, where I go with it is, you know, my spiritual life rituals are really important and rituals are physical activities outside of myself that return me back to a state of being. And there is a lot of joy for me in the ritual of getting dressed up and the process of how, and like I have shifted from, you know, I, I used this body oil and I love it because it's kukui nut oil.
And what I learned from Hawaiians is that that's considered like the nut of enlightenment. Like it's like the oil is, is considered pure light. And so when I use it and I put it on my body, I'm not just like. Not paying attention going through. I'm literally like I'm slathering myself and enlightenment and light.
And I use that as a moment. I don't do it all the time, but to actually think about being grateful for my ankles, being grateful for my calves, being grateful for my body. Like actually as if I were not my body as if I had it, like, you know, one of the things I say to my clients a lot is imagine if your body was a relative and I use relative, not friend.
Cause we tend to pick our friends. We don't get to pick our relatives. And if your body was a relative, a cousin, a sister, a brother, a mother, a father, what was your relationship with that relative be like, do you even talk to them at all? Do you yell at them? What do you think about them? Like what do you even know what matters to them if you asked? And I actually do these exercises with my clients where they get outside themselves and they have conversations with their body and they listen for the intuitive and their body will talk back. Like if you get quiet and you actually like get to that present space and then you ask like, Okay body, what do you want to tell me? It's pretty profound. What actually will get returned and communication in their mind's eye. And like, we don't have a traditionally, a lot of rituals to be grateful, but for me doing my hair and doing my makeup and getting dressed up in certain clothes and, and bringing that part of myself out is an honoring of my body from like more of a spiritual ritual standpoint, then I've got to keep up with the Joneses or look at particular way.
Cori LoveJoy: Yes. Yeah. So I think that's right. I think that, that we did throw the baby out with the bath water and there's that sort of view towards fashion and that other of, like you said that more towards then in congruent way and more towards that congruence. And I just want to say again that you looked gorgeous yesterday.
Oh my God girl, like you were so rocking that dress. I had such body and dress envy. It was crazy. And you were amazing. I loved everything you just said, and I think you're so right and articulated kind of a lot of what I feel and this idea. So for me, it's important to dress up every day because it's like, I get to, it's a- it's a reminds me of like that.
I get to do it, you know, like it's, it's, it's important to me. It feels good. I feel better when I'm made up and, and have a dress on or something nice. And it's become that important ritual and reminds me because, you know, like I wake up, I look in the mirror and I see what I saw for 48 years, you know?
I see my beard whiskers, you know, I see, you know, the male features, I see something that's ugly and that's been embedded. Like that's a, you know, that's an, as my friend Kate says, you know, that's a highway, that's a neuropathway pathway that has been very well worn and I have to work actively to get out of that.
And so the affirmations, the rituals, I have a bunch of affirmations that Kate wrote for me that have stuck up on my mirror. You know, we remind our, so we got to talk to ourselves and that's self care that lotion. And then the talk you put along with that self, you know, caring, self-compassion, that's loving yourself and it's, it's important.
And I mean the root and there's no true word spoke than RuPaul. You know, you've got to love yourself before you love anyone else. You know, that's like just the truth as but it's like, So I think you just listen for that inner voice. It's like, what do I, what do I want to express today? You know? And and I think I get this a lot.
I like a lot of women are like, I want to dress up, but I don't have the occasion or whatever. I'm like, yeah. I'd say occasionally you're the occasion. Yeah. You are the occasion. You dress up for somebody, a good friend of mine at the Ivy the Ivy's have phenomenal restaurant and and bar in town and there are... people there are super awesome.
I go there a lot and they've super welcoming. I've just found salt Lake city to be very welcoming and, and particularly. You know, some businesses, but anyway, she, see, you said that you're the occasion. And I, as I love that, I'm like, can I take that? And it's like, you know, you would dress up for a friend.
You would dress up for a friend, Sarah, you know, it's like, what's important if a friend's wedding, you know, there's a day of celebration. Well, for me, I get to celebrate that I'm alive because I feel like I'm in bonus time, I feel like I could have easily killed myself many times. And I am very conscious of the choice that I make to live.
You know, a lot of people like, Oh, I have to go to work. I have to get dressed up. I have to whatever. And I'm just like, I get to, yeah, I get to, and it's, it's, it's a privilege. And it's like every day I get to be express the feminine in me. I mean, as difficult as like it's been this last year. And I think that was your first question was like, it's been quite a year or your first statement is like, yeah, it has as difficult as it's been though I am happier because I'm exercising my personal responsibility. My choice of being conscious. I'm happier because I'm owning this life and I'm not at the mercy of it. I'm saying I get to be alive. I can make different choices. And even one of us can get out of this thing at any time, you know, it can opt out.
I've thought a lot about opting out. And I just like, no, I'm going to stick around. I'm going to stick around. And sometimes the only reason I can think to stick around is because I liked the food. I liked the people and the clothes are awesome. You know? So there's, I'm going to take, I'm going to stay in this party one more time.
And sometimes it's just like, Oh, this is like this like a bad movie. This is a really fucked up movie. It's terrible, but I'm into it now. I got to see how it ends, you know, whatever it takes to sort of get me in the mental spot of like, Oh I get to be here. I'm curious. I wonder what this day going to bring. I wonder what lesson I can learn. Like I've really started to say, like, this is school and this is recess, play...
Sarah Marshall, ND: I wonder like our attachment to, you know, I mean, this, this has taken something in my life is like really recognizing there is no past and that, I mean, we should do a whole nother podcast on that, but like, to really stand in that, that the past doesn't exist, that all the past is now our thoughts and memories.
And you're the one that gets to propagate that or not. Like I caught myself one time, I've moved around a lot and I had moved to New York to salt Lake city. Again, I hadn't lived here in 15 years and there were these familiar conversations popping up around me about me. And I was like, I was struck by the reality that the only way they would have known that is I had to have been the one to say it.
Cause these are all new people. They didn't know me 15 years ago. They didn't know me 10 years ago. And so if that was still showing up around me, it was because it was coming out of my mouth and to just check myself, like, do I want to just keep dragging those stories from the past forward and keep telling them again, because these people had no idea about that until I'm the one that told him.
So that was a big aha moment, but it's really like, I get myself stuck in like expectations of being consistent, or I have to show up a particular way and I love my life and I love what I do. But even in this last year, I shouldn't say, but, and this last year, year and a half, I've been really looking, you know, I'm 12 years into my practice.
I don't want to just rinse and repeat for the next 25 years. Like, what else is there? What else do I want? And it's in giving myself the permission that I could drop my medical license and I could do something completely different. Just knowing that that's possible that I could completely reinvent my career.
I could completely read it. I mean, I am moving to New York. I am going to reinvent what my external environment. I'm going to be close to family for the first time in 20 years, you know, willingness to do that. Cause I'll even get kind of mentally stuck in a route of like, I just have to keep showing up the same way I always had and the risk that it is a risk.
And I mean, I feel like this is tiny compared to what you've taken on in your life, but I know that we both have this and we all can share this with each other is to encourage each other that your past is in your past but what do you want to create now?
Cori LoveJoy: Yeah, you're so right. And I think I'm glad you got to the framing it as a risk because it's like it's safe. That's what the rinse wash and repeat is safe. We're such as human beings. We just such creatures of habit. Like we just want things to be predictable and safe and we get in these ruts and that transformation, whether it's, you know, giving up your medical license or moving to New York or, you know, whatever, like whatever your risk tolerance is, you know, or, you know, an aversion to risk is like, It's real because it's like to stop doing something and do something new is that transformation we talked about, you're leaving something known and going to something unknown and it's scary.
And yeah, we can do that, but we've got to build up to it. You know, it's like, we've got to, I think we have to, you know, continue to exercise these muscles of like doing things that make us feel uncomfortable. That's how we grow. I mean, I believe I love Ron Doss and his documentary becoming nobody. And he just says like, this is school, you know, we're in school.
We, we incarnated in this life to learn something. Our souls came and took on this, this particular skin suit and this particular life. And we're doing, doing this to learn something. And I believe that I don't know how it works, but I think it's an awesome metaphor. It's probably just a metaphor, but it works for me.
Yeah. And so I'm here to learn. And so every day I learn and be like, how do you learn? Well, guess what you get out of the unknown? Like, how do kids learn to walk. You know, getting up and doing it and falling, and there's some risks, but it's like, but you know, they've got parents around them and to like, you know, make sure those risks aren't catastrophic.
So I'm a big fan of like doing these experiments, like getting in the habit of like finding something you're scared of. And we all know the different types of fear. You're not going to walk out. I'm not talking about walking out in the street and you know, not checking where you're going, but the fear that sort of says, like, I can't do this, I shouldn't do this.
I hate that word shouldn't. I wish someone would tell me what purpose. I mean, that's that it shouldn't is just from shame, but I can't do this. I shouldn't do this. Like when we hear those voices, I'm just getting more and more in the habit of going, Oh, that's that same talk track. And Oh yeah. I know how to do this.
That's wrong. I'm going to go, right. I'm going to go. I'm going to go into that. I'm going to do that thing. And sort of like, cause that voice doesn't seem to be all those voices. Like this is part of me learning to live, love myself. I think we're in school to learn, what are we here to learn? We're here to learn to love ourselves.
Why are we here to learn our loves ourselves? Because we can then ultimately learn everybody, love everybody and everything, but we've have to start with ourselves. And so that's, and that means like we have to move into those dark places in those fears and do it in a way that, you know, take these experiments, try these things.
I mean, I remember the first time I went shopping at a store and bought a skirt. I remember the first time I wore that skirt on a public bus. I mean, I remember it was like, I was terrified every step of the first time I went out and makeup for some, I went out in a dress, first time I went to a restaurant, first time I went to Nordstrom alone, the mall, you know, or drove across the country and world clothes. Like all of these, I was absolutely terrified to do ahead of time. And I did it and I was like, WTF, like, why was I scared? Like there there's real risk there are, I mean,
Sarah Marshall, ND: there's real risks you in particular. And the trans population now has to deal with the major, major physical risks.
Cori LoveJoy: So I had to pay attention to that. And, and thankfully my, my wife and some good friends were like, Hey look, you, you lived as a male. You don't understand the privilege you have and you didn't get it needed to be safe. And I understood that. And I understood that was part of girls school too. Part of girls school was realizing that like, Oh shit, I was part of a very small group of people that were privileged enough to be able to walk out their front door and not have to give a shit whether they were safe or where they could go and that sort of thing. And I had to learn the opposite. So I'm not talking, I'm not talking. That's why the experiments are important and doing this with friends and doing it in a safe container. But testing those voices, like proving those voices wrong in these like little safe experiments. I can't wear that dress.
It doesn't, you know, wear the dress, you know, it's, it's friends in the backyard, you know, you know, so it's like very low risk, so to continue to, so that's that just love to, to encourage people to take some risk. And so I've tried to bring like all this stuff into my, this, this you know, Nacional personal stylist business that I'm building and, and shopping and love having people come to Nordstrom and visit me and help them find fragrance or makeup or clothes or...
Sarah Marshall, ND: , and we'll make sure your Instagram is in our show notes and people can follow you and track you. And yeah, I can't wait till, you know, I mean, I know you're doing it through Nordstrom right now, but I already can see the transformational personal stylist, you know, and what I mean, it, it is it's I worked with a colorist one time and we did five hours together and that shifted things both externally and internally old scripts I had about like, not looking good or not feeling good.
And she's like, kind of, you're just picking the wrong colors. And I was like, Oh, light bulb. I mean, it was like such a small and then whole new world opened up for me about, you know, from that, that moment. And it does matter. I do a lot of work on people's insides, their biochemistry and detoxification and, you know, balancing hormones and all of that.
But it there's, I really believe, you know, an equal and opposite importance on how we get to show up in the world. Cause that's so much of our, and to be able to be creative with how we show up in the world and play around with it and do different things.
Cori LoveJoy: So just enroll yourself in girls school. Like it's, you know, it's like find people, find people who, you know, can teach you this stuff.
I'm not good at makeup. Okay. Well, contact me. I work with like about six people that are, are the most fabulous makeup artists ever, you know, like, did you talk to your friend who's is a colorist, you know, like put yourself through school. Don't just say I can't do this well, and that's, you know, no, you can, of course you can learn it.
Yeah. And that's the only thing that's stopping you is, is that so yeah. So thank you. Yeah. I love joy style. Those are that's my brand. That's my my mantra, the three most important things in my life is loving everything and seeking joy, discovering joy, wherever I can and then finding our style, which is just like our personal power.
Sarah Marshall, ND: It's awesome. Cori, Lovejoy thank you so much for doing this. This was so special and I'm so honored to get to have you here. And I, I just, I'm, I'm clear that you getting to share your story and make a difference in the trans populations and all of us. I mean, there's so much in here. That's part of the ubiquitous human journey of just confronting who we are and being willing to take those risks, to live congruent with our highest purpose, our soul's calling the lessons we're here to live all of it.
Cori LoveJoy: Yeah. Thank you so much. Well said. And yeah, it's been a very wonderful privilege to be here and an honor. And it's been a joy. I love you, Sarah.
Sarah Marshall, ND: I love you too. Thank you.
(music)
Sarah Marshall, ND: Inspired by the success of HEAL, with a community now of over 4,000 incredible healers, we will be launching some courses and workshops in 2021. Be the first to know about them by joining our mailing list at SarahMarshallND.com. Thank you to today's guest Cori LoveJoy for her passion, love, and style. For a full transcript and all the resources for today's show visit SarahMarshallND.com/Podcast. Special thanks to our music composer, Roddy Nikpour, and our editor, Kendra Vicken. And as always, thank you for being here. We'll see you next time.