Dr. Jamal Atalla on the transformation of healthcare, lifestyle medicine, and being an MD
On today's episode, Dr. Jamal Atalla challenges us to look at what it will take to transform conventional health care, and shares his own journey from surgery to being board certified in integrative lifestyle medicine.
Referenced in the Show
Dr. Atalla’s Bio
Jamal Atalla, MD
American Board certified in Medicine, Nephrology and hypertension diseases
Graduate of Integrative Institute of Nutrition
Board certified from the American college of life style medicine
Married, has 4 children
Full Transcript
Sarah Marshall ND: Welcome to HEAL. On today's episode, Dr. Jamal Atalla challenges us to look at what it will take to transform conventional health care, and shares his own journey from surgery to being board certified in integrative lifestyle medicine. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Marshall.
Sarah Marshall ND: I think we can just kind of dive in here and , you are somebody I particularly thought about because of you're a medical doctor you're nephrologist. Is that how you would actually describe it? (Jamal: correct!) And then specialize in hypertension disorders? And, you know, in the time of the 10 years, you and I have known each other, I've watched you expand into more interest in integrative medicine, nutrition, holistic, what we would call holistic medical thinking.
And you, for me, I don't know that it lives for you this way have been one of the, the breakthrough pioneer MDs that I think about when I looked to what could be possible if. You know, we'll get into this today, but if nothing else, just even your willingness and want to understand a broader scope of medicine beyond pharmaceuticals being our only intervention in chronic illness and occasionally, you know, surgery, but a lot of times surgery really is a last resort under those kinds of chronic conditions.
And, and then where you've shared with me that I'm sure we'll get into today is like, what you've struggled with is. Okay. You have a passion for holistic medicine and a very different approach than what you were originally instructed in as a medical doctor. But now what do you do about it? Like how can you express that and where can you make a difference?
And is it going to be in the office? Is it not going to be in the hospital? Is it going to be, you know, what, what does that actually look like? So I think starting out with a reality check about these statistics is important. It's something I've, I've talked a lot about, which is. I think that that is so normal to people, it almost doesn't create an impact
Jamal Atalla: Correct!
Sarah Marshall ND: Of (Jamal: uhhh) course everybody gets disease, right?
Jamal Atalla: Yes. Yes. And often you think when you hear about this statistic, well, it's going to affect somebody else. You know.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: Nadia and I, we were in a, in a conference in Florida, might have heard about them, the truth about cancer.
Yeah.
And you know, when they share these statistics about cancer, we kind of looked at each other.
So look, one out of two American, at one point will be diagnosed with cancer. Talking about just, you know, being real, you know, and just kind of, we looked at each other. (Sarah: Yeah) yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: And, and that, I mean, some of it is also the system, the way we describe deaths in particular, like on a death certificate, you have to die of something.
Like, do we have a box that says this person lived a great healthy life and died of old age naturally? Like, I don't actually know that that really, I mean, we come, like there's some thing there was a cardiac event or pneumonia, or, you know, there'll be something.
And then we get into global health. You deal away with some different things beyond, you know, with a lot more infectious disease and other issues become a way bigger play at it, (Jamal: correct. Yep yep) but it's still human-caused in this sense, that (Jamal: yep mhm!) sanitary. Part of me-- you know? Yeah. So that (Jamal: and heart diseases) reality that we all are going to die of a chronic illness has just become like the water we swim in. And we don't think that that's that weird.
Jamal Atalla: Exactly, you know, heart disease being the number one cause, and it might be good to kind of delve into this list, blue zone, communities around the world. Then. And people who live, you know, to be above hundred and then just they die. Those become the anomaly. (Sarah: yeah)
You know, we speak about them and we kind of study them. What what's special about these people? How come they live more than a hundred years, they 120 and then they just die, you know, without spending the last 30 years of their life visiting doctor's offices, you know, it's kinda, it's, it's refreshing to see like, It's quite, quite a refreshing to see what's, you know, what's among them, you know, what is the common dominator in all of them?
Right? You know, they eat plant-based diet, you know, they move all the time and they don't necessarily go to the gym or do races, but they're always moving. Right. Whether they are shepherd or whether they're farmers or, yeah. So, you know, maybe, maybe something to kind of reflect on.
Sarah Marshall ND: Well then what, what have you seen in the research around that? Like what have you discovered about what's unique about these communities of people that creates this environment of what looks to be ideal health? They live great lives and then die of old age at a very ripe old age for our standards of over a hundred. Like what have you seen about that and what you've discovered.
Jamal Atalla: So they there's five communities worldwide, that they are known as blue zoner. Okay. There's one in California in Loma Linda there's one in Japan. There's one in Costa Rica. There's one in Italy. and I'm blanking on the last one, but, but, but people, they went and studied them. and they found like eight qualities in these people basically that they, they, if united all of them, there's a lot of stuff that make you healthy, but they just found eight common denominator amongst, amongst them. So, so as I said, eh, they have a purpose, they all have a purpose. They all live as they said with the right tribe, you know, you spend your life with the right community, with the right tribe. They eat, I eat mostly bland plant-based diet. They don't eat until they are full. They, so, you know, it's, it's a common amongst them is that they eat till like 80% all of their stomach. They don't feel satiated when they leave food.
Sarah Marshall ND: That's interesting. That one, because like, I don't think that's been highlighted as much, even in my exposure to longevity medicine and things is that we talk a lot about a nutrient dense, low calorie.
Like, like I did have my nutrition professor in naturopathic school was a major proponent of vegan diets and he talked a lot about. You know, getting the most amount of nutrition, nutrient dense foods, which we often think of as nuts seeds, legumes, and like very dense vegetables and then like a minimal calorie diet.
But that sounds different than just, it's more applicable to just say, well eat until you're 80% full. Like, I actually can imagine that as a reality in my life. Whereas the other one is a little harder for me. It's conceptual, but it's harder for me to imagine practicing it.
Jamal Atalla: Yes. Yes.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: So they leave that, they leave the meal, they leave the table and not feeling full.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: Know what I'm saying? They leave, they leave a space. Okay. they don't, they don't live an over-driven life. It's always on the run. You know what I'm saying? Like, I gotta jump, I gotta run. I.. They're busy they're they have a full life, but it's not, there's not that overdrive, you know, what they call it, low gear, low gear life.
And then family first that's that's I think that's, that's sort of the qualities that I remember.
Sarah Marshall ND: Interesting. And what, I mean, can you say more for you? What your present to you about family first?
Jamal Atalla: I mean, we live at a time where. You know, family ties is fading away. (Sarah: right) It's very, very casual. You see people, I haven't talked to my mom for 10 years. (Sarah: mhm)
My dad and I are not in good terms. I haven't spoken to my brothers. They are jerks. Or whatever it is. Right? You know, it's, you know, but they don't know what the impact has on them (Sarah: yeah) and on their family to live this connected, you know, like, that has. That you could run till the cows come home. Right? You could go to the gym, but there's, if, if your relationship with your, your parents are, are, are not in good shape,
Sarah Marshall ND: right.
Jamal Atalla: You might not be present how much that's impacting your health Atlas assure your parents' health as well.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: You know, so that's the sad reality that we deal with, that we deal with, you know, the standard we live in.
Sarah Marshall ND: And I think there's, I mean, there's a lot of complexity to that because as you know, I have really, truly a very small window view into the world.
Like if I deal in reality with my exposure and I consider myself a pretty worldly person. But, but if I tell the truth, like, I mean at most I'm exposed to maybe 10,000 people's lives and views, including like Facebook and television and the news. And, you know, like, so out of 7.8 billion people, I basically have no clue what human beings are really dealing with, unless I I've read it in an article.
And it's where, you know, or a book that somebody else has made the assessment. So if I like tell the truth about everything there is for me to know about all of the people's lives on the planet, I basically am guessing with what I'm about to say, to set up the qualifier. But what I see (Jamal: yeah) for my little key hole view is that there's a shift in conversation about trauma and child abuse and childhood neglect. And I I've actually had this conversation recently with some family members where one hand we could say it's on the rise. But on the other hand, we could say our cultural standards have changed. There. There was a time where my impression is when you know, we knew that only 20% of children who were born were going to survive to adulthood and you had children to create a workforce. To contribute to the farm, the family, they were a resource and, and, you know, 150 to 200 years ago, five and six year old children would do a lot of work that today by our standards would be considered insane to ask a toddler essentially, or a young child to do
Jamal Atalla: right.
Sarah Marshall ND: And that wasn't considered abusive in that cultural context. So then that's where we get into really interesting territory, which is the language and the cultural conversation we're in and how that impacts us. That being said, I can imagine a lot of people saying, yeah, I haven't talked to my dad in 10 years.
He was a jerk and he was horrible to me as a child. How could it be healthy for me to have that relationship with him?
Jamal Atalla: Right, right. but, but, but the reality is that we hear more of these stories than what we're ever used to. Yeah. We, you know, family structure, as we know it in, in the state or otherwise. 30 years ago, It wasn't even close. Fam-- you know, to what we deal with now and the impact of the new way of life and the social media.
And, you know, the rush for more jobs and the economy impact and all of that right? (Sarah: right) Has, has definitely a great impact on the way how we live life and how we relate to each other, you know? So that, that social fabric has completely changed.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: You know, so, so, you know, so then what kind of impact that has on people, whether they know it or not see that's the thing most of the time, they just don't know it sometimes.
I just don't I don't sleep well. Right? And I, I, I, I don't have energy. Okay. But then when you start unpacking, you discover, you know, some, some things that there's no way anyone would be healthy having it in their history or not complete with it.
Sarah Marshall ND: Right.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: Not being able to come to a place of wholeness about those incidences or those things that happened to us throughout our lives or things we've had to deal with.
And, you know, I see it, you know, my practice is 90% lifestyle medicine. I mean, I also use herbs and homeopathy, but I have the opportunity to, to work with people really intimately about these kinds of things and like, You were saying like, you can run all the marathons and you can go to the gym and train all you want.
But if you're incomplete with your family members... and what I see is always, but a lot of times, and people listening can try this on... that people who are highly driven to exercise, there is a component of that's in compensation of other places in their life that they don't have peace of mind. (Jamal: very true) And they say like, I have to exercise every day, or my anxiety is so high.
And I find that when we get to the roots of some of the things they've dealt with and that gets resolved. They, they're not so driven to be a triathlete and run marathons. (Jamal: yeah!) There's a point where they get to a place of peace or they choose it from an entirely different context. Now it really is about like, Oh, well, what can my body do?
And how can I train and challenge myself? And it's not coming from too, as a coping mechanism for things that they've dealt with. And that can be in any area of lifestyle, you know, food, video games, internet consumption, you know, exercise. It can be in all of those. And like you said about sleep. If I see to the places where people have unresolved challenges emotionally, and it has a direct correlation into difficulties with sleep and regular sleep and dealing with insomnia.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah. Yeah. And part of the crisis that we live in this country is that we don't have a whole lot of healthcare providers follow the same approach that you follow, you know, and like delving to the, to the, to where the issue is, you know? Okay. I'll write you a prescription out of the door, (Sarah: right) 10 minutes, write my notes.
Right? That's the kind of healthcare that we live anymore. (Sarah: yep) Unfortunately, you know, So when we talk of healthcare transformation, we ought to at one point confront these issues. Right? And, and, and see what w how we'd want to move about it as, as a healthcare provider or otherwise, or as legislator, you know, people often expect from this party or that candidate and stuff that, you know, transform health.
Well, it's way deeper than that, right? It has to do with people choices and the lifestyle that we live in and, all of that. But, but, but behooves us, I think to, to, to really start having that, these kinds of conversation to, to, to deal with, with, with, with these crisis that we, we, we see on a daily basis.
Sarah Marshall ND: So, how has it been for you?
I mean, you've, you've tell me a bit about your background and history. Like how long have you been practicing medicine and where did you study?
Jamal Atalla: I finished medical school in 1991 from Damascus university.
Sarah Marshall ND: I won't tell you how old I was. (both laugh)
I think that's the year (Jamal: let me ask you this---) I started middle school.
Jamal Atalla: So in any rate, and I came right away to the United States.
Sarah Marshall ND: Okay.
Jamal Atalla: So, and I did my training. And I've been, so yeah know, then I (inaudible) home anymore. That's where (Sarah: yeah) my children were born and yeah. and I did training in, in, in medicine, in, nephrology (Sarah: yeah) and hypertension and an also in interventional nephrology.
So I kind of do, you know, Some procedures that has to do with that dialysis access, to pop people on dialysis machine, they need, you know, some particular vascular surgeries and stuff. So that's the bulk of what I, and then my, my passion for the holistic health, as I shared with you before, you know, probably the last 10 years or so.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: And were you and Nadia together when you were in Damascus or did you meet here in the United States?
Jamal Atalla: We met in Syria, but no, when I came here, we, I wasn't married, (Sarah: ok) but then, you know, we met in Syria.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: Yes. Nadia (inaudible)
Sarah Marshall ND: I'm just privileged to know her as well. And she's an absolute joy and radiant beam of heart and love and light. And so you're, you're a lucky guy (chuckles)
Jamal Atalla: I'm blessed. I have to say.
Sarah Marshall ND: And then she, she trained. Did you say she's a pathologist? Because she went to medical school as well. I thought.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. She's a pathologist. She reads hematopathology and flow cytometries, and she does it online.
Sarah Marshall ND: Okay.
Jamal Atalla: So she has that, privilege to do other things in life and, and she continued her medical career.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: Mainly virtually.
Sarah Marshall ND: Awesome. And four kiddos.
Jamal Atalla: And four kiddos. That's right.
Sarah Marshall ND: How old are they now?
Jamal Atalla: So my youngest is a senior in high school Sana, and then my oldest Yusouf. He's a 24.
Sarah Marshall ND: Excellent. Awesome.
Jamal Atalla: So I have a boy as the oldest and three girls.
Sarah Marshall ND: Well, that keeps you busy. (laughs) Good.
So when we look at, you know, you've, you've spent the majority of your career inside the conventional allopathic medical system and where do you see that that's working? And where do you see that it's, it's I want to say failing, but maybe that's too strong of a word, but like what, what can you say from being on the inside of the system as a practitioner, who's also delved into, you know, lifestyle medicine. So like what, what do you see that we do really well with conventional medicine? And where are the places where we're falling short?
Jamal Atalla: Sure. I remember like even during my medical school, even the first, second year, I would go volunteer in the emergency room. I was like, You know, that's, there's excitement, there's adventure. And I would go volunteer in like in my summertime and unpaid, but just to do something that I enjoyed, and we would see people would, you know, car accidents and heart attacks and, and we see you know, do sutures and all of that.
That was very exciting to me. and I still think that, you know, the, this part of medicine, this is the acute medicine is really, we do well, in allopathic medicine, you know, we deliver care that we don't imagine. We didn't imagine not long ago. So, you know, all of the acute care. You name it, you know, heart stroke, trauma, you know, And that, that part I enjoyed, I still enjoy, you know, that, you know, making an acute difference with people's life.
You know, you walk into a situation where somebody is coding and I, you know, and making a difference for them that that's really fulfilling. And I think that's where really allopathic medicine shine.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: Right?
Sarah Marshall ND: For us lay people. What does coding mean?
Jamal Atalla: Oh, you know what, like they have cardiopulmonary arrest.
Sarah Marshall ND: Okay. Right. So near death (in a hospital setting) experience
Jamal Atalla: near death. Right. (Sarah: yep, yep) You know, and I could tell you story after stories. Like I worked in emergency room for six years and, and I, and I have, you know, amazing memories, sad and happy. And, but, but all of it is exciting and it's, you know, to me, it's like very, very fulfilling because you make a, you know, and make a difference there and then right.
And I think that that's, I think that's, that's really allopathic medicine, do amazing there. I do see however, opportunities when it comes to chronic diseases. Okay. And, and what I mean by that, you know, diabetes, high blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, cancer, autoimmune disease, I do see an opportunities, whether in this country or worldwide for allopathic medicine to really look into it and see what we can learn, because, you know, in reality, you know, we, we, let me tell you about this country.
We, we spent probably more than double. And I'd want to compare us with other, (Sarah: yeah) you know, Western, Western country.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah. Develop, you know developed of countries. We spent, we spend more than double per person for healthcare. And our statistics, unfortunately is not the greatest. We have the highest rate of obesity. we probably have, the worst, mortality at birth.
You know, when you compare us to Sweden, let's say, we're double Sweden in that. Right. And the reason is that we don't spend enough money on prevention. See, that's the opportunities that I, that I do see.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: I think as healthcare provider is really have this. Kinda zoom out, look and see what, what we are doing that we need to adjust, or what's an opportunities that we could take on to really make our, you know, practice of medicine even greater or better.
Right? That's where the opportunity is, you know? And, and if you, if you, you know, you don't know, you know, if you see that's mostly what we encounter as physician, we see people with diabetes, you know, heart disease, cancer, right. and we spend, you know, the expenditure of the, of the American budget's about three point about $3 trillion.
I mean, sit with this number. This is, and still it's ever, ever increasing.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: This is unsustainable.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: You know what I'm saying? and you still, we're not doing greatest so well, let's, let's look and see, you know, what, what we're missing, you know, and, you know, from my personal experience and from all, you know, what I've witnessed from, around me, that's, that's a, an opportunity that we really haven't.
You know, you know, banked on
right.
Is to look into like, we need to transform the way that we practice and approach chronic diseases.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
And I mean, I know that this is going to be just our thoughts and opinions, but, you know, I've thought a lot about like, how do we actually do that? And, you know, is it starting with, you know, introducing a different level of training in medical school. So physicians are literally exposed to a series of different conversations and I've wondered too, like if that's something that I could potentially contribute is like, it may not be that physicians are necessarily the ones that are going to have the hands-on that they're going to be doing the dietary lifestyle coaching.
But I think if physicians aren't trained in the effectiveness of these therapies, if they don't witness the difference that they can make, if they don't have a personal experience with them as valid interventions, it's not going to have the support throughout the chain, but at the same time, the way we work and inside of insurance and the compensation mechanisms for physicians, it doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense to have the physician be the one spending the time to go over the diet plan or introduce detox to them. You know, when I think that's one of the places we've struggled with, do we bring new professionals in? Is there, is there a need for. Literally. I mean, there's been a lot of conversation and there are at the ground level, there are a lot of people getting trained as health coaches, but I don't know of a lot of health coaches being hired and utilized effectively inside the allopathic system.
It's still external-to predominantly. What do you see about that?
Jamal Atalla: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I agree, but I think also things are changing. There's a lot of healthcare provider there, they are recognizing this. And, you know, for the last year, I'm part of the American college of lifestyle medicine, and I'm board certified with them and they really have made an impact.
So they recognize that 90% of chronic diseases is something that we could control and reverse often reverse. I could coach you multiple studies and I'm not talking here, I'm talking solid evidence-based medicine.
Sarah Marshall ND: Right.
Jamal Atalla: Part of my board was to kind of grapple with all these studies and try to get them in.
And there's too many of them, right? Where it shows that, you know, putting people on, you know, exercise program, some yoga and some social worker cons you know, consult. Produce better results than left heart cath (inaudible) with, with people who had lesions in their coronary. And that's proven by repeating their coronary angiogram and finding that these lesions are no more. Just on lifestyle.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: So, so American college of Mifestyle medicine have really, it's expanding every, every year I go to their conference. It's, it's wonderful to see that you'd see people and you'd see physician and healthcare provider worldwide, worldwide, that really getting into this conversation and what we need to do about it.
And now, as you suggested brilliantly, introducing nutrition courses and lifestyle courses into medical schools. Yeah. They will, they will show you a map like, Oh. And you'd see, and it's very refreshing to see that in most metropolitan areas now courses about nutrition and about lifestyle is part of the curriculum now of, (Sarah: awesome) of medical school and residency programs and some whole lot of other work.
For instance, as you also said about, the time and, what, where a physician allocate time to deal with patient. There's this new concept of group visits where people, you know, you know, health care providers see a group of people, group of patients. Right. But then he would, you know, or she would, educate them or spend that quality time with them collectively.
And then still there's a little time that they could have in private to do physical or to do other conversation that they can do in group.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: And how this model is really working, you know, so the patients getting the quality, education and training (Sarah: yeah) and coaching that they need, the physician they're really feeling, they're making a difference in people's life (Sarah: yeah) because, well, they're spending a lot of time, but with the group of people, And then those same group of people, they go next to see the dietician and then they go and see the, the, the physical therapist or whatever it is.
And they move in the system in an efficient way that really works for, for them. They're very happy and satisfied and. You know, at the same time, logistically and financially and, and things, a model that works. So this is now more talked about more and more and more models are coming (Sarah: yep) to really address these issues.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yup. And I mean, I, I am familiar with, you know, one of my neighbors actually, has participated at, her cancer treatment through the Huntsman Cancer Institute in Salt Lake City, Utah, and Huntsman is known for being very open and very on the cutting edge of a holistic approach to oncology. And she gets offered meditation classes, which she'd never considered doing before she went to Huntsman.
And it was her oncologist that are introduced her to meditation and they have all sorts of nutrition, information, cooking classes, like they've really looked at where, you know, and the, and then there's, I've seen. It's mostly, I'm familiar with it in Utah, where hospitals have incorporated having gyms onsite.
And there's also some gyms and medical facilities where half of it is just your regular community gym. And on the other half is more something between primary care and urgent care and, and you can go get lifestyle workups, you can get cardiac workups, you can go in. So it brings another level of also data management to people who want to go to the gym and track that.
And you get to have it under the same roof. And I, at one level, like, does it matter that it's in the same building, but I think structurally that creates the literal relationship between a healthcare model (Jamal: right) and your medical treatment is happening in a way that the, the whole environment is more about how you're living every day, you know, (Jamal: absolutely) and the difference that makes.
Jamal Atalla: And the government have recognized us. And now, not, as, as widespread as you would want to see, but definitely there's a program. I'll give you an example. Dr. Dean Ornish was a cardiologist, (Sarah: yeah) you know, he, after he presented the data, now there's a programs that people with stable coronary artery disease, meaning they have lesions, they would have you know, historic, gone to the cardiologist and got a stent, they're assigned to these kinds of programs and the government pay for them.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah. Medicare has been paying for it.
Jamal Atalla: They get better, better. Exactly. They get better results for half of the costs.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah. And some of those, (inaudible, both talking) what I remember from it is like a 12-week program that included diet yoga, meditation, and social conversations, which I want to get into with you next. And often what happened is in the groups, everyone was so connected with each other. The program ended at the end of 12 weeks, and then they created a way to keep talking to each other or to keep meeting (Jamal: Totally) because that social component also came in which there's tons of research in that department as well.
I particularly know about a lot of it around breast cancer, that they've done studies that show people who are dealing with breast cancer, have a significantly increased rate of success, non-recurrence health after their treatments, when they have a supportive social environment around them, whether it's friends, family, or whatever kind of community.
And I think we kind of started some of the conversation here when we were talking about those indicators of those blue communities and one of them being about family first and they have a sense of purpose and there's this social fabric. (Jamal: mmm) And I think more in the last 10 years, we've started to discover.
You know, I've seen statistics around epigenetics that shows it. Yeah. Diet is important. Like for me, I always talk about it. Like we're building a house and if you don't pour a good concrete foundation, you're going to have a pretty rough time putting up a solid structure for the rest of the house. And that's what the diet is. (Jamal: right)
The diet is that concrete floor, but it isn't the whole thing. It's not, I mean, (Jamal: right) we've also run those studies where we've just put people on nutritional changes and it'll get some people only so far, but without altering their social environment, without them having a sense of belonging, community, family love, you're just not going to get the same (Jamal: yes) results.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah. And so, and I want to totally support what you're saying, Sarah, and it's so it won't land land for people like, you know, touchy, feely kind of things. There is something in medicine called the Roseto effect. The people could look it up. Roseto is a small town in Pennsylvania, that in, in the 1960, I think 61, people recognize that there is a staggering difference between Roseto, which is an American Italian community, that lived in that town. They have a whole lot better mortality related to cardiac disease and heart attacks. Right? And it was like staggering difference. Like there's something special about this community. Right? So they, they went and group of researcher went and studied Roseto and they said, it's gotta be the Italian diet.
I know it, you know, the oil and right.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah. Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: They found out that they eat the worst kind of food, you know, me ball and what not. Right. but then later discovered the secret and it become known as the Roseto Effect that this community is socially tied, you know, where, where generations live together and they, and they meet on a daily basis and they take care of each others. (Sarah: yeah) This survival advantage was lost when kind of more this community, more, you know, this community transformed more into the normal, you know, standard. You know, lifestyle, but for 50 years, Roseto due to their social structure, have a survival advantage that still, you know
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: It, it, for, for us to reflect on, you know, (Sarah: yeah) and then they would call it (inaudible) medicine, Roseto Effect.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah. That's pretty remarkable. I mean, I've, I've seen studies around and I've talked about it on the podcast before longevity studies that showed that how we culturally respect our elders, like, are they respected as a source of knowledge and wisdom that is a asset to our culture, which was one of the things in international communities that differentiated places that had a high level of centenarians and people that lived over being a hundred years old was because as you were elderly, you were gaining a community standing and stature of being a source of knowledge, wisdom. You were considered a contri-, like you said, a sense of purpose, a contributing member of society and in communities. Like our westernized American community is we tend to highlight as long as somebody's still in their working years into their sixties and maybe mid seventies.
And it's interesting cause my parents, you know, my dad's about to turn 76 and my mom just turned 74 and. You know, people are pretty shocked to find out my parents are in their seventies. I mean, if you look at them, it's not like, I mean, they look 70, you know, like, but they live independently. My dad walks every single day.
They have a sailboat that they maintain, like th they have fully, nothing about their life is deficient. They have completely massively active lives and are up to things. And I think actually there's a lot of people in their seventies and even their eighties. That that's true for. But culturally, if you say somebody 75, what we think of what comes to mind is an elderly person that's not able to take care of themselves. And, and culturally it's like, we don't. Yet even live in reality about what's possible. And at that time, and we consider it, like my parents are considered unique and, you know, I like to take a little credit that they've been practicing naturopathic medicine with me for the last 15 years.
And we have had disease reversal for both of them. That being said, though, I think that we have a cultural opinion that maybe isn't a match for reality. And then also, you know, what does it look like? Like how do we expand that conversation? How do we actually shift to honoring these members of our society and have them be important members of our community that can still work, contribute, you know, I mean, I don't, I don't know what that's going to take. (Jamal: yeah, yeah, yeah) I know it's, it's critical component of this conversation.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah, totally. I mean, it's a, it's kind of, it's an invite us to look at really what we deem, important in our life and how vanity plays, you know, plays a role in how we evaluate things and how we evaluate ourself.
You know, we worth what we look, you know, we often. (Sarah: right) Oh, everything around us, invite us to look good, you know, lose that weight, gain that way, this, you know, it's all talks about outside, right? You're not going to see a, you know, an advertisement, you know, talking about inner values. Right. (Sarah: yeah) So it's just, it's just, it just for us as a culture, right.
As a global culture to look and see what we deem important anymore.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: And that's what you would expect and that people that's something that people used to experience in the past is that as you, as you age, you become more valuable to the community because now you have more experience to share, you know, you have more time to share.
Unfortunately we do see that missing anymore and it's, again, it's a global thing, right? Globalization of, you know, what is, what would the value, you know, what we deem valuable, what we deem, you know, precious.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: You know, so it's for us to reflect on.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah, absolutely. And then in your own life, you know, how has this played out for you personally with you have a passion in holistic medicine and your, your day job, you still go to the hospital every day. So what is it like, what has been the most challenging part about this for the last 10 years for you?
Jamal Atalla: Yes. So I think, you know, a lot of the physician probably who, who are allopathic, doctors could probably relate to what I'm going to share is that, you know, You recognize that what really makes a difference, right?
Talking about these simple things yet very powerful in the common sense. And it comes with great sense of, excitement. You know, I could tell you, like I've been adopting a lot of the practices that I've learned from my nutrition study and from my lifestyle into my practice as a kidney doctor in downtown Phoenix.
And I can tell you the excitement that comes when people are able to lose some weight, drop some medication, or cut down the doses. Now they're able to walk more and they, and I showed them on the graph. I kind of flipped my laptop and I say like, listen, This is where you came and you see like how you lost the weight and you see how GFR, which is the kidney function, (Sarah: mhm) how it's kind of improved.
And they see this and they become a believer. And so, however, I do function in a system that for good or bad, you know, are kind of restricted about a certain, a certain structure that allows you to do so much. Right. So I think a lot of the physician who, or healthcare provider who wanted to really, take this on and, and fly with it or do something with it with their patients are confronted by functioning within a system that does not really give you a lot of slack, you know, So for me personally, you know, taking on some of this, applying it to my daily practice has really made a difference, but also on the side, I kind of with like-minded people have created some structure as well that we play with it. And it's a community programs that we've launched. And I can tell you like the excitement, the results, that, that, that people were able to produce out of doing it together. So we, we launched a programs called the Toxathon. Okay. And the Toxathon is, it's based on a simple idea as one of the German French philosopher physician has said before, Dr. Albert Schweitzer, he said, It's supposed to be a secret, but we physician don't do anything. We merely encourage and nurture the physician within. If, if you leave your body, if you cut out the toxins, all kind of toxins, including emotional and social and spiritual, then we heal, our bodies are designed to heal.
So, so we designed a program that, that, you know, kind of educate people and in an exciting way, about okay. Doing that, how I detox. Right. So, so, you know, The first time we did it, we did it with juicing. You know, we did one week of juicing and people met and they brought, you know, a healthy dish and it was a comp competition, which one is the winner with the healthy dish.
But then we launched this one week of just juicing, right? And people would juice the lemon and they add a little ginger to it and they play with it. And it's such an excitement and connection time. And people did the program. I tell you, you know, I would have not been able to do it for one week just on juicing.
Right, but everybody did it. And I can just tell you, like how, how excited people were the kind of results that they accomplished. (Sarah: mhm) You know, people would say, Oh, I've lost 12 pounds. You know, people are, I swear, I had shoulder pain for the last two years and it's gone, you know? So, you know, it's about, but these are still kind of more experiment.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: I wish that there's a, you know, there would be a way that to, to expand on this, whether personally, or as, as a community to make this as a standard (Sarah: yeah) to create, you know, create excitement. I tell you it's depressing. You know, when you deal with reality in, in, in what we encounter in the offices, in the hospitals, you know, people in their sixties and seventies spending most of their life between doctor's offices with, with, with a bag full of bottles of medicines. That's not pretty exciting. (Sarah: mhm) That's pretty depressing. And I can't. And on the other hand, I, can I tell you like the excitement you see when people are able to accomplish results in their health (Sarah: yep) and see the difference and touch the difference? Oh my God. It's day and night, Sarah. (Sarah: yeah) Day and night.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah. So I, you know, as in my journey, I mean, I'm experimenting with things.
I hope it would, you know, it would. Take me and take, you know, take what I'm trying to do. And more importantly, you know, for people to take on something that restore healing, you know, restore healing as a concept that healing is not taking pills. Healing is not, these are crutches. I tell my patients, I prescribe medicine all the time, by the way, but I tell them I do medicine, right?
Listen, this is a crutch. This is not the healing. The healing is you do. And you do by, you know, sleeping well. And by seeing what's incomplete in your life and by eating well. And I just give them specifics, sometimes direct them to some of the documentaries, try to be creative with the little time that I had that I have to spend, because again, I'm, I'm restricted with, with, with the system.
But I tell you like with the little that I've been practicing. I can't tell you how excited they were. And I was.
Sarah Marshall ND: That's pretty amazing about it is, you know, it's, it's really good for me to get this reflection. Cause I swim at the other end of the pond, you know, where we are like all in D D completely immersed in, you know, lifestyle medicine and naturopathic medicine.
And it's easy for me to get jaded. That like, unless everyone does it to that extent, it's not going to make a difference. (Jamal: mmm) But the reality is actually one of the things that always impresses me. And I remember I had a patient. Early early on. It was like the first three or four months in my practice. I was in Bozeman, Montana, and being in a small town, we kinda got a pretty diverse group of people who came to us. And I had a gentleman come in who was in stage four kidney cancer, and he'd already been back and forth at John Hopkins and had gone through varying... I don't remember all the details of his chemotherapy journey, but he'd been through a lot and he was more or less at the end of his life at this point in time. And I'm a brand new baby doctor. My eyes are like blink, blink, blink. Like, what do I do with this guy? And it was really confronting because I wasn't about to try, like, I wasn't there to treat the cancer. (Jamal: uh-huh) I was there to support him, you know, in whatever way I could. (Jamal: right)
And I remember for financial reasons, the only thing we did with him (Jamal: mm) was, I gave him a flower essence, which is a homeopathic preparation specifically for the emotions. And they're like five bucks a bottle. And I gave him (Jamal: yes) instructions to do castor oil packs to help his liver. (Jamal: Mm) And I gave him instructions to end his showers with a cool to cold spray, to just turn the temperature down, to help with lymphatic circulation. (Jamal: right.)
And that was it. That is all we did. (Jamal: yes, yes) And in two months he said, he'd had a 30 to 50% increase in his energy levels.
Jamal Atalla: That's amazing. Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: He passed away that summer and there was this like opening that happened. (Jamal: mm. yeah. uh-huh) And I, that case always sticks with me about how powerful, when you do give the body a healing mechanism, something that helps increase their nutrition and decrease toxicity. (Jamal: yes)
It's remarkable how much you can make an impact with really what to me (Jamal: yeah, yeah, yeah) looks like a simple and small intervention. (Jamal: yes) So it's awesome to hear this from your perspective too, to just remember, actually. (Jamal: mhm) And, and a lot of times, like we can call it like gateway treatments instead of gateway drugs. (Jamal: yeah, yeah) These are all like, they, they plant a seed, they open something for somebody that the experience of which, you know, in kidney disease, (Jamal: mhm) a seven day juice cleanse is probably not going to handle the whole disease, but it cracked something open.
And then people have a visceral experience of their body (Jamal: yes) actually being able to shift and change and heal. And I know for myself, you know, finding medical doctors like you, who are even willing to speak in this terminology is, is phenomenal because it opens up (Jamal: mhm) the possibilities and I've had people come to me who say you're the first and only doctor that's ever said that it's even possible for me to reverse this. (Jamal: mm, mm)
And that's a place where I do think. That there absolutely should be training at the level of, of medical schools to have conversations about. And I've, you know, this has been a big, this is a soap box warning. This is one of my soap boxes (Jamal: yeah) is like, who are we as physicians to tell people what isn't as impossible on their lives.
Now I get that there is good reason (Jamal: mm) to share prognosis, but prognosis comes from our research, which that's a whole nother thing of like (Jamal: right) what we research and where the medicine and the money goes to research and, and how that all, you know, but like really like who are we to decide truly what prognosis is? (Jamal: yeah)
And we leave people in a space of what they think is, and isn't possible because there's a lot. And I'm also not in that airy fairy world of like, anybody can heal everything. Like, no, I mean, the body can get overwhelmed and it reaches a point where it's just not going to turn around. But wellbeing can be injected (Jamal: totally) socially, wellbeing can be injected, you know, from a heartfelt, like you said, being complete about things in your life. Even if the physical body is beyond reproach in that same sense.
Jamal Atalla: Yes, yes, no, totally. I mean, as you said, you know, I totally a hundred percent agree with that and sometimes just be in the listening of what's missing in this person's particular life.
Sometimes it's not the, the three months chemo treatment course that is needed.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: But the, but, but the standard of care becomes like an algorithm. Things, people walk into a healthcare, like they're walking into a car, you know, carwash, they're just passive, water's splashing in their face. And then the soap and they have no say right? (Sarah: yeah)
Versus a model where a healthcare provider, like you would see like what is appropriate. Maybe if I listen to that patients. Yeah, no. See, I, I, you know, peop patients are shocked sometimes when they see a doctor who really not speak, but listen, it's not about preaching to them. You know, it's, it's, it's very disturbing, you know, like, you know, people walk into a doctor's office and hear this majesty doctor, you know, preaching to them, their wisdom, his wisdom, and not really knowing where they're standing. (Sarah: mhm)
Maybe, as you said, what's missing is not, it's not something that's maybe something small that really make the difference in the quality of their life for however long that life is.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: You know? So you're the patient that you made a difference with? He's advanced cancer. He probably would have died anyway, right?
But he could have, you know, he could have spent whatever that time is, you know, with devastated. I've seen my own parents do that, that withering away. Right. Versus seeing like what's missing, maybe not, that's not what they need, (Sarah: yeah) you know, these kind of these kinda, you know, simple, but yet very, very powerful thing.
I feel like as a, as a healthcare provider, we...it behooves us to really kind of re-examine what we're doing and to up our game (Sarah: yeah) and to really, really make a, make a difference, not just, you know, change, practice into mechanical things.
Sarah Marshall ND: Right. Yeah. (Jamal: yeah) The bringing. And I know at the personal physician level often, there's a lot of desire for this. And then, like you said, we, we have a challenge in front of us that.. it Daunts me like crazy of like, well, there's an entire institution, there's a whole system built around this that is above and beyond just if we got all the physicians in a room and we talked to them about how they would like, you know, one of my stands has been, we could transform medicine, if we freed up every physician and practice true to their heart. We don't even have to teach them lifestyle medicine. I mean, that would be great, (Jamal: right! yeah!) but just to let physicians be the ones that are working with the person in front of them and making the choice a hundred percent that they feel is in the best interest of this person, that alone would transform the industry.
And physician satisfaction, which we could do (Jamal: yes) a whole nother podcast on the challenges (Jamal: yes) that physicians and I, and we've been saying physicians through this cause we are, but nurses, the whole supportive staff, the administrative staff (Jamal: totally right) that work in hospitals and in medical facilities, you know, billing (Jamal: yes) the whole about all of those human beings that are there inside (Jamal: yeah) supporting that, you know, it's unfortunate. And it shows something about what we've got to deal with that one of the most unhealthy work environments to work in is the medical system. I have many patients in my practice who are all sorts of, you know, occupational therapists, ultrasound technicians, you know, people that are in different aspects of medicine and they're dealing with a chronic illness.
And one of the hardest things that we have to contend with is that every day they go to work in an environment that is a detriment to their health. And then we have to work out that (Jamal: yes) inside of that system. So that. That's a clue that there's some things to shift about how we're operating as well and how we take care of our, (Jamal: yeah) our practitioners.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah. Yeah. People tell you like hospital food. Like they, they give you an example, like this is as bad as hospital food. It becomes like (Sarah: uh-huh) it should be, it should be that people go there for the food (Sarah: yeah, yeah) that's that's, you know, and, and, you know, And, but it's terrible food. It's not, you know, it's, it's, it's very unfortunate.
And as you said, Sarah, it's always kind of want to extend this even to non-healthcare provider, because it w in one way or another. We all are healer (Sarah: mm) seriously. And I'm not, I don't mean that as a cliche.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: I really don't. Healing--I know you believe this. And I I'm, I'm, I'm a full believer of this--that healing, it's it's restoring the body, the mind, the soul, the heart, right? And this is not, I'm not being, you know, this is the reality. This is supported by data. So we all are healer at one level. You know, and I shared with you about the know Roseto element people were able to just by having a solid social structure, able to beat, you know, any advances in cardiology, right. (Sarah: yep) Invasive putting stents in people, right. Heart. if we take this on, I mean, that would really transform our understanding and our living of the true meaning of healing. We're all healer at one level. If we, if we man up to it, you know, if we really understand it, the way we ought to unders as it is to see it as it is not to have it, you know, diminished, you know, view of this holistic thing.
Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: And I, I, you know, I was been thinking about this actually through the whole episode is like great to talk about these things, but I want to leave us in a place where there's actually some actions to be taken, you know, that can make that difference. And I was thinking about, okay, given that we know isolation and loneliness, and a lack of, of support through friendships and family massively contributes to people having difficulties in health, in finances and education in lots of different areas. (Jamal: mhm)
I think we have a tendency to put the pressure on the person who's isolated, that they need to go do something about it, (Jamal: yes) but that's like telling the person who's got the broken leg. They should be the one to walk across the room.
Jamal Atalla: Yes.
Sarah Marshall ND: And so actually, you know, for me personally, this time during COVID has challenged me to look at how do I take care of the people around me? What am I willing to do to contribute? And to be the one that reaches out. To be the one that asks them how they're doing. To be the one to check in on people. Like, since I don't run into people socially, like I did a year and a half ago,
I've noticed the phone calls changed and I don't have that same, you know, automatic built-in chance to catch up with people. And it's challenged me to really notice for myself that I didn't have, I've got a shit structure for actually keeping tabs on all my friends and how they're doing. Like I, before I counted on going to a conference or ending up in an event, which was fine. And that was awesome. But since that's not been there, it's challenged me to really look.
And actually, this is an interesting anecdote. One of my friends. She did a letter project and she sent out, I think she said 80 or 90 postcards to her friends. Two people wrote her back. I was not one of them. I'll be the first to admit I got the postcard and I just got it. It was like, I was so out of touch with the habit that like the natural thing to do when you receive a letter or postcard is to reply.
Right? I just didn't. And it was so interesting. She mentioned this recently that. And it just, it just dawned on me like, all right, I've got a lot to up-level to notice what actions can I take? And some of it's with strangers, for sure. And, and random acts of kindness (Jamal: right?) and saying hello to people. It, all of that makes a difference, but I've been challenging myself to particularly notice the people who are already in my life that I haven't been catching up with touching base with having a phone call, finding out what's going on in their life. And I just keep every week now I've been picking different people that just come to mind. If they come to mind, I reach out. I say I send something and (Jamal: yeah) that's been a new practice for me.
Jamal Atalla: I think that's brilliant, Sarah.
I mean, I really, if you are asking about actions to take something, to leave this conversation with, I would invite people to take that and start with the closest to you.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: Started start with the people that you haven't spoken with for a long time in this close family circle, you know, restore that and, and let's have a conversation after that and, and, and share with us that breakthroughs.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: Cause I guarantee you, you gonna have a big fruit in, in, in, in, you know, in health, in sleep, in vitality, right? Yeah. You wanted health. That's where health is. I guarantee you, and then, then the door opens up, right. You know, that definitely, you know, being responsible for your health is extremely critical, you know, and the nutrition and the detox. (Sarah: right) These are stuff that we do, but it has to be on the foundation of like really looking at your whole body as a, as a, as a body, heart, mind, and soul. (Sarah: mhm) You know, that's, that's, that's, that's another area that people, it behooves us as, as a human being to look at, right? (Sarah: yeah) Like spiritually, where we're at, you know, what we need to do to be complete, you know, in all of these areas.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah.
Jamal Atalla: Including spiritually.
Sarah Marshall ND: Yeah. And we've got, this has been a topic that's run through the podcast all the way through. And, and if anybody's interested in a little bit more about particularly grief and being complete and addressing some of these places, there was an episode in season one on grief and grieving with Audra Boyd.
And she talked a lot about like, how do we even address these components and what does it mean to be complete? You know? And, and for me that completion and wholeness are often interchangeable. So what will make a relationship whole again? And that doesn't always mean. You're going to be best friends with that person or have regular interaction, but it's about resolving regrets and resentments to a place of acceptance or peace, and love and divinity can be something that comes out of it. And what I'm about to say is probably definitely oversimplified, but it's, it's more about, planting a seed to think about which isn't it interesting that what you noted about the Roseto, pennsylvania town is we say cardiac disease, but it's heart disease.
It's a disease of the heart. And if we are willing to allow for that to be emotional, our heart, our community, our family, I don't think it's an accident that those two things are related. (Jamal: sure) And then in diabetes, I've had the conversations with clients about where might they have a less than healthy relationship to the sweetness of life. (Jamal: yes)
And it's not the whole story with diabetes, but that can be like, do you allow the sweetness of life to come to you in all forms of relationships, intimacy, passion, you know, in not have it only be in this one area. And with cancer often I have people who I talk with and what they end up sharing is there's deep-seeded places in their life of resentments or regrets (Jamal: yes) that are unresolved that eat us alive, like a cancer, (Jamal: ah, ah) like, just notice that that's actually something that we say in our language. (Jamal: yes) And
Jamal Atalla: Yes.
Sarah Marshall ND: There's a actual literal reality to the resolution of these challenges and histories and traumas in our life and how it correlates to our physical body healing, that is as important as a diet. And it's as important as moving your body. (Jamal: yeah) It's all very, very connected.
Jamal Atalla: That's brilliant. Yep. It's really, really awesome. I really want to acknowledge you for this effort of, Of, going through putting something like this, people need this, especially at this time, because you, your approach is, is real, it's raw it's touches people. I've listened to many of the episodes it's just, it's just so refreshing. You know, (Sarah: thank you) I mean, you might have not responded to your friends, card, but in a way you did (Sarah: uh-huh, yeah) in a way you did.
Sarah Marshall ND: I definitely apolog-- it was, it hit me. I was like, wow. Okay. I, that went right, went right (Jamal: yeah) past me. I didn't even see it, but now it's alive for me.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, you know, listening to your, you know, you're listening to the podcast is people put, people will get along. Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: Absolutely.
Well, and you've been a massive contribution and I just, I really appreciate your friendship. I mean, we've, we've been able to bat ideas around between each other for a long time and also, you know, willingness to be here as a guest. It's, it's really important to me. You know, I could effortlessly interview dozens of naturopathic physicians and healers and shamans, and I want to, but I have a particular desire cause I had my own process of dealing with, the conversation that I got confronted with when I first graduated of not being a real doctor and, and where I thought I fit into the hierarchy and kind of wanting to hide out. (Jamal: mmm)
And you were actually one of the pivotal medical doctors who I became friends with that shattered. That conversation for me and opened up this world of mutual admiration and respect and
Jamal Atalla: yeah,
Sarah Marshall ND: that's just, it's priceless to me. And it's, I think it's something that where we can come together as physicians and work together is going to make a huge difference.
Jamal Atalla: I didn't bestowed that on you. This is something that who you were, and for me in my life, and this is, that was just real. And I can tell you how much I. I appreciate our friendship and, you know, (Sarah: yeah) the time that we got to, to spend together and looking forward to maybe kind of collaborate (Sarah: yes!) on more of these conversations.
Sarah Marshall ND: Absolutely.
Yeah. Excellent.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah.
Sarah Marshall ND: Great. Well, thank you Jamal, (Jamal: awesome) so, so much. And, until we do this again.
Jamal Atalla: Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Sarah Marshall ND: Thank you to today's guest Jamal Atalla for his passion and stand to make a difference.
Are you ready to take on your own health? I'm now accepting new clients for 2021. It's typical for me to be full by mid-spring, so contact me now at sarahmarshalland.com or on Instagram at @SarahMarshallND. For a full transcript and all the resources for today's show, visit SarahMarshallND.com/podcast.
Thank you for listening. Support and spread the word by leaving us a review on your favorite platform. So we can heal our world and as always special, thanks to our music composer, Roddy Nikpour and our editor Kendra Vicken. We'll see you next time.